“There’s this doctor who’s written books about all these hellish NDEs. How come he has so many people in hell and other researchers don’t hardly at all?”
The doctor was cardiologist Maurice Rawlings, in Chattanooga, who did indeed write almost a half-dozen books about hellish near-death experiences between 1978 and 2008 (he died at 87 in 2010). Here’s what I can say with any certainty about why he reported encountering so many distressing experiences.
Rawlings told the story of his patient who collapsed during a stress test, and “before we could stop the machine, he dropped dead.”
Well, apparently not completely dead, because in the patient’s own words,
“When I came to, Dr. Rawlings was giving me CPR, and he asked me what was the matter, because I was looking so scared. I told him that I had been to hell and I need help! He said to me, ‘keep your hell to yourself, I’m a doctor and I’m trying to save your life, you need a minister for that.’ … And I would fade out every so often, so then he would focus CPR again and bring me back…Whenever I would come back to my body, I kept asking, “Please help me, please help me, I don’t want to go back to hell.” Soon a nurse named Pam said, “He needs help, do something!” At that time, Dr. Rawlings told me to repeat this short prayer. “I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Jesus, save my soul. Keep me alive. If I die, please keep me out of hell!”
The experience of the patient, Charles McKaig, then became pleasant, and he reported seeing his deceased mother and stepmother and being surrounded and comforted by the Holy Spirit. Upon awakening, he was an immediate evangelical Christian.
In Rawlings words, “After this was all over, I realized what really happened. It was a double conversion. Not only had this make-believe prayer converted this atheist … it had also converted this atheist doctor that was working on him”
Years later, Rawlings told his audiences,
“If you can catch people before they die and give them the option of accepting Jesus Christ as their personal savior, then they can’t loose [sic] whether they live or die. That is with them forever. And when they die like this, we don’t have to question where they went. And the preacher will be right when he says they are in Heaven. She went to heaven to be with God.
“But for those who die on the street, where do they go? It is the minister’s fault, your fault and mine because we did not approach them with the Gospel which is the free gift to anyone that wants it.”
You can read the entire account here: http://www.freeevangelism.com/testimony/hellandback.htm
Essentially, that is the backstory of why Maurice Rawlings reported so many hellish experiences: He wanted to get people’s attention in order to save them from the hell he believed in; he wanted to give them a chance to accept a faith he trusted completely, and telling heavenly NDE accounts was not going to achieve that. He was being steadfastly and thoroughly evangelical.
Despite his faith, a great many people object strenuously to that point of view and discount his work because of it. The real problem underlying the Rawlings material, however, is not theological. The problem is, as his fellow cardiologist (and fellow evangelical Christian) Michael Sabom pointed out repeatedly, a distortion of data.
A reading of any of Rawlings’ books will immediately give the impression that he resuscitated countless near-death experiencers—he himself said that his first book summarized “several hundred” cases—and heard their testimonies immediately, roughly half of them “hellish.” Sabom’s painstaking investigation of Rawlings’ data turned up quite a different picture.
Despite what was reported in Beyond Death’s Door, those “several hundred” cases “were represented by only 21 cases of ‘heavenly NDEs and 12 ‘hellish’ NDEs. Many of these were clearly not from Rawlings’ own practice, having been excerpted from other published sources. Others were simply left unidentified.”
The same situation presented with To Hell and Back, Rawlings’ second book. In a 1996 review in the Journal of Near-Death Studies, Sabom noted that of the 32 cases Rawlings claimed, twenty “were clearly lifted and referenced from other sources, and six were personally acquired examples used in his previous books. The remaining six NDEs appear to be new, previously unpublished accounts obtained from his own experience. However, two of these six cases were mentioned only in passing and never described.”
In other words, by reusing previous accounts and padding from other sources, Rawlings was able to give the impression of a greater number of distressing NDEs than he actually had. Further, his books leave one with the impression that many, many more distressing NDEs would be revealed if only people were interviewed immediately upon resuscitation. Sabom’s research indicated that conclusion also not to be supported by the data.
“In fact,” Sabom wrote, “the cases he presents actually seem to favor the opposite conclusion: out of 15 ‘hellish’ cases, ten (67 percent) were clearly shown to have been brought to Rawlings’ attention long after the golden ‘first few minutes’ after resuscitation, four were elicited at an unspecified time, and one 7 percent) was clearly noted as immediate.”
There are too many other problems to detail here. The gist of them all is that Rawlings, who was without question a lovely man, sincere in his beliefs and genuine in his concern for people, was working from a highly personal agenda more than from a desire for unbiased information.
What Michael Sabom reported after years of carefully reviewing Rawlings’ work was this:
[Rawlings] establishes himself before his audience as a cardiologist with impeccable credentials, a near-death researcher, and a committed Christian. Using these medical, scientific, and religious qualifications, he then presents the NDE as a glimpse of an afterlife and directly applies the Christian doctrine of heaven and hell to these experiences. This gridlike approach, however, poses problems to Rawlings in his interpretation of his and others’ research when the type of person (for example, non-Christian) or type of near-death event (for example, suicide attempt) does not jibe with the expected afterlife destination (for example, hell). Rawlings confronts the data of others with authoritative statements substantiated with little or no data of his own and illustrated with anecdotal accounts that, over time, appear to have been altered to fit his own designs…”
Sabom concluded, “I am a Christian and believe in heaven and hell. Based on current knowledge, however, we have much to learn about the NDE, both distressing and pleasant, before we can say confidently just what the experience means and how it fits into our spiritual beliefs.”
What this says to us is that before believing any claim about “ultimate truth,” or any researcher’s sincere pronouncement of having a final explanation about NDEs, it is wise, as Dorothy discovered about the Wizard of Oz, to look behind the curtain to find out who is providing the answers, where they are getting their facts, and what other people of substance are saying about them. This is not cynicism but discernment.
how thanks my dream came true!
LOL Glad you’re happy. Thanks for giving me such an interesting topic!
Hello Nancy, I respect very much your work but about Dr Rawlings and his books Wich I have, I want to say to is not just him with hellish NDE.Check please some cases of Dr Michael Sabom famous cardiologist,Dr Margot Grey book “Return from death” , Scott Rogo “Return from silence” and even Dr Kenneth Ring.
So, please, when you speak, do it when you studied enough no offence.I do this from 25 years.Thank u for
Robert, I think perhaps my reply to your comment addressed to me will appear with another comment you made to Ruth on the same date. Sorry my response was out of place!
Unfortunately to you, what Mr. Rawlings wrought is theological sound: Jesus said that fewer people will go to heaven than those that will go to hell! And the reason you do not see too many hellish NDE is because they are simple not allowed to return! Jesus said in the parable of the rich man in hell, that he wanted come back and preach to his brothers, but he wasn’t permitted to do so! For sure, you have already somebody whom new you and are in hell right now, praying that you will not land there! You should not rely on opinions, either yours or somebody else in regard of your eternal soul, but read and follow what the Word of God say about eternity, because the Bible is the ultimate authority on those matters, and it say that if you don’t have Jesus as your Savior you’r done! May God bless you.
Re “Jesus said that fewer people will go to heaven than those that will go to hell”: I take it that the passages you had in mind were Matthew 7:13-14 and Luke 13:23-24, which don’t have Jesus saying as such that more people will go to hell than to heaven – just that the gate that leads to destruction is wide and many more go through it than through the gate that leads to life. And, in view of what I’ve observed on Earth, I have no difficulty whatsoever believing that most folk make life difficult for themselves to some degree or other here and that lasting peace and contentment is therefore something that few find.
As for your claim that visits to hell are comparatively rare because most people who have them aren’t allowed to return: that still doesn’t account for NDE reports involving heavenly beings and landscapes seemingly being more common than ones involving some kind of hell even among non-Christian experiencers. I mean, if it is true that only those who leave this world with traditional Christian beliefs go somewhere nice in the next world, why does God fail time and time again to take advantage of the opportunity to warn non-Christians who have a brush with death that they’re on the wrong path, and appear content to simply sit back and let Satan draw the bulk of non-Christian NDErs into a lovely but shambolic realm where they’re fooled into thinking that their theology isn’t terribly important to Him?
Wouldn’t like to say what the actual meaning of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is (maybe it has more than one?), but one theory is that it has nothing to do with explaining life after death, and is a story that was told using figurative language and beliefs of Hellenistic Jews influenced by Greek religion to hammer the point of Jewish neglect of Gentiles.
Further theories on its meaning can be read about on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_man_and_Lazarus
Dear Jon,
I will pray for your unbelief. If you truly ask with a humble spirit to understand the bible (please read the authorized king james bible, there are so many perverted versions out there that have appeared since the mid 1800’s, better yet visit AVPublishing.com and get a great copy of “New Age Bible Versions” by Gail Riplinger. Another great book is “Which Bible Would Jesus Use?” by Jack McElroy), the Holy Ghost will assist you. Please read the Word of God, the King James Bible. It will help you understand the why’s and who’s and what’s. I used to be a “New Ager” and believed in UFO’s and all that stuff, but thank God Jesus Christ opened my eyes and showed me how I was being misled! Once you realize that the “aliens’ are truly devils in disguise, you will know what is going on. I grew up having many experiences, but once I asked Jesus Christ to save me, he did! And pray for discernment in all these things, that helps immensely.
May the Lord Jesus Christ show you the way! (John 14:6, KJB)
Having found that each of the various forms of rigid, fundamentalist religion I’ve encountered over the years raises a great deal more questions than it provides answers, I can’t envision myself ever being seriously tempted to embrace such a system of belief any more than I could back in 2014, I’m afraid.
Evil and stupid
You cannot pick and choose only parts of Jesus’ teachings to suit your own desires. Jesus spoke often of hell especially in the last part of St. Matthew. It is all written in red, and I would be sure to follow ALL of his teachings which includes eternal hell fire and outer darkness. He did not mix words when explaining these things. Even the parable of “the rich man and the poor man” portrays hell as fire and eternal with undying thirst. Why take a chance on this? It is the most important decision of your life. The Bible is the only road map that we have. I am VERY close to God at this point in my life. I believe in following very closely with the red print of the Bible above all else, because it is as close as we are going to get to what Jesus said. When your meditate and pray everyday, the Holy Spirit guides you to what you should believe. I believe there are many hellish experiences that people do not want others to know. Also, they went to hell and were not sent back. The best thing to do is accept Christ and do not depend on ministers, church people, family, anybody, but Jesus Christ and his teachings. He said if you believe in him you believe in God the father who sent him. With this comes the blessed Holy Spirit. Why would you need anything else. Prayer and reading God’s Word everyday will open up your understanding of what he wants of us. We need to love our fellow human beings, forgive all who trespass against us. The unforgiving spirit (holding grudges) will keep you out of heaven. Jesus said we must forgive to be forgiven. He lists all the things that will bar you from heaven: lying, fornicating, stealing, killing, even fearfulness (not trusting him), on and on they are all listed. The answer to all our questions are in the Bible and closeness to HIM. May God bring his understanding and blessings to all of you.
If there were a single “right interpretation” there would not be so many denominations and disagreements. Thank you for participating in the conversation.
How can you interpret the following (in red) any differently then how it is written: Matthew Chapter 25 verses 41 through 46 (Jesus was addressing caring for the least among us). He said to those who showed no mercy and love for their fellow human being ” Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels; For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat; I was thirsty and ye gave me no drink. I was a stranger and ye took me not in; naked and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not ………………………………………………………………….Inasmuch as ye did it not one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. ‘ And these shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into life eternal.”
How can anyone not understand these very clearly stated words? I admit there are some parts of the Bible that are difficult to understand without a prayerful communication with HIM, but not hell. He clearly states in many passages what hell is and how to avoid it.
God bless you, Nan Bush. Keep praying and a pure and loving heart, and God will reveal to you the meaning of the distressing NDE you had.
As it says in the bible (KJB), the evil ones comes and takes away the Word of God. Please read anything by Gail Riplinger, she knew her stuff. Her book “Hazardous Materials” shows the evil behind these newer bible versions (Wescott, Hort, et al). They all had agendas, changing the bible and destroying the faith of many! It’s tragic how Satan does this. The denominations are works of men who have mixed their words and ideas with God’s words, which is apostasy and blasphemy. God’s Word is pure, please read “In Awe of thy Word” by Gail Riplinger.
May the light of the Lord guide you to the truth, which is Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, who died for all our sins.
Dear Christian-with-a-particular perspective, I am familiar with the work of Gail Riplinger, whose point of view about the early King James Version of the Bible you share. I grew up with that version of the English Bible and am grateful for it. I also know that from the very beginning the Bible has lived in more than one language and even in its earliest years, in multiple interpretation. The Bible itself shows us differing opinions on all sorts of issues, while Christianity has absorbed ideas from many sources and shaped itself into a multiplicity of forms. For these reasons, you will not find my posts supportive of any tightly restrictive, limiting theological or philosophicaal view. Thank you for caring; we simply have vastly different views of what that means. The light of the Lord will surely guide us all who search.h
Yo R.Brown,
Seriously, even going by your idea of Jesus, do you really think that God sent us here on Earth only to have us follow a book written with clear, direct, unmistakable, literal instructions so that we can return to him in the spirit world?
What would be the point of sending us to Earth in the first place?!?
Just meditate on it more, pray, etc…meanwhile, let go of your ego for a moment….and you’ll FEEL the truth of the matter: Whatever Jesus said in the bible (or likely yet, what is re-paraphrased over & over in the bible) is like a spiritual puzzle that you must figure out by LIVING, doing, contemplating, experiencing…THEN you find your answers.
The ONLY direct command by Jesus that is clear cut & unmistakable is “Love God, and love each other as I’ve loved you”.
That is the first “direction”. Everything else you see in the bible is more or less a test. But like a “Following directions test”, don’t neglect the first direction for the other 18, only to find out at the very last “direction” that you had it wrong all along.
We all have free will. Picking and choosing what you want to believe is taking a chance. God Bless all of you!
DO YOU KNOW YOUR BIBLE SAYS HELL IN 3 DIFFERENT VIEWS? SHEOL, GEHENNA, TARTARUS BUT IN ENGLISH IT SAYS HELL. SHEOL, THE GRAVE WHERE WE ALL GO, AND GEHENNA THE TRASH DUMP OUTSIDE SOUTHSIDE OF JERUSALEM AND TARTARUS THE BURNING HELL FIRE LAKE OF FIRE. WHERE DOES IT SAY ONLY THOSE WHO ARE NOT OF GOD ARE IMMORTAL SOULS? DESTROY BOTH BODY AND SOUL IN TARTAROO, NOT BE TORTURED FOR 1,00000 TIMES PI TIMES 0*&^%r TO THE EMC2 POWER. SPIRIT GOES BACK TO THE FIRE, THE SOUL AND BODY IS DESTROYED IN THE LAKE, WHICH BURNETH FOREVER..GO SEE EDWARD FUDGE. HE’LL SHOW YOU THE MESS UP OF THE LANGUAGES AND HOW ONLY THE RIGHTEOUS (SAVED) AND GOD HASS IMMORTALITY. THIS IS ALLL GREEK THAT THEY CONFUSED..EVEN OLD SATAN WILL BE BURNED UP.
So much depends on whether we read the Bible as literally true or as spiritually true. A literal reading leads inevitably to tremendous fear.
This is in reply to Ruth Nan (there wasn’t another reply link I could use):
Ruth, it says in the bible that the Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. That makes sense to me. Because I am working out my salvation with fear and trembling. We are to fear God as Jesus said to fear him who can destroy the body and soul in hell. This helps when people are being martyred, I can imagine!
It’s worth remembering that the Greek word translated as ‘fear’ also means ‘awe.’ And for every Bible verse about living in outright terror of God, there will be other verses about God as loving and protecting. As for ‘hell’ as we understand it, that idea came out of pagan teachings around the time of Jesus, but was not part of official Christian teaching until several hundred years later. Another instance of multi=layered meanings sources, and interpretation. You have every right to your beliefs but that right does not mean that your interpretations are the only ones legitimate.
Wilson Baird,
Thank God someone is following Christ’s teachings!! Yes, indeed! The people who are in hell were not allowed to come back to tell the story!!
Hello Ruth, I think you “deleted” nature of God and Jesus through what you told,Jesus is mercy, forgiveness and understanding…for humans,I remember you from Bible to Jesus was in hell for us in New Testament to broke “chain of eternal death” and was crucified as well for us!
Robert, thank you for commenting. If you read more posts on this blog, I think you will be reassured about my endurance in this field. This one post was exclusively about Dr. Maurice Rawlings’ work and did not suggest that he was the only writer to mention hellish NDEs. He is one of the very few writers on this particular subject.
I don’t condone Rawling’s apparent laziness as a professional if, as you point out, his mistakes are real. However, I think that Rawlings does give us a push in the right direction by insisting that we get right with God through Jesus Christ before we die.
A reasonable proposal. Thanks.
I agree with your view totally Nancy. But while we’re at it, let’s not forget the HNDERH experience. This stands for Hellish Near Death Experience Right Here.
My Wife upon discovering that I by mistake had left the refrigerator door open all night, and spoiled a lot of the food, confronted me.
After hearing a few bumbling excuses, The skin split on top of her head, the meat fell away to both sides of her skull, lightening shot out of her eye sockets, and I was reduced to a chard Rhesus Monkey sitting on a grease spot.
She screeched Go Straight To HELL!! you stupid idiot!! From the smoking remains a little voice said “you mean this isn’t it?
Quite a bit of that going around, I guess.
You are making way too “light” of this situation. Hell is mentioned many times by Jesus in fact more than Heaven. We must take account of our life and follow his commands and love our fellow human being forgiving and asking forgiveness from him for our sins.
Ah yes, more poetic humor!
I always respond to people’s “Go to hell” with “Already been there”.
Of course the secret punchline is that I’ve been “there” in more ways than one.
My poetic humor = Mental survival
🙂
Dear Hellboy,
Don’t forget, the devils didn’t even want to be there, as when Jesus met the man who dwelt among the tombs, they begged Jesus to not send them back there, and to enter into the swine. He suffered them to do so and the pigs stampeded into the lake and were drowned. Soooo, if the devils don’t want to go there, I don’t think humans would either.
Eternity is too long, especially since we don’t have to if we call upon the name of the Lord to save us. He already died for us, his gift is our salvation, for free! Can’t beat that one.
It’s always so helpful when a well-prepared, cogent person shows that an Emperor actually has no clothes. Thanks, Nan! And, I think Rawlings, though well-intentioned, was misguided — you can reach people better with gentleness and reward than with the threat of punishment. Isn’t that what Jesus mostly said?
What is it about the attraction powers of honey and vinegar? Yep, that’s exactly what Jesus mostly said. I’ve always wondered why people have such hearing loss over that.
While ZI understand that he may have greatly embellished his stories, there are other conclusions that can be drawn as to why there are less hellish experiences. Most of the people who report this experience DO give accounts of being given a second chance to go and complete some type of work that they haven’t done. That is why they are sent back in the first place apparently, but what if they NEVER complete the work before they die ? Way too many selfish and bigoted people die everyday who would NOT meet the reqmts that are professed by those who DO return. Too many people die who could care less about their fellow man and could not have been ready either. To me all roads lead to the same conclusion. I sometimes lie to my kids in order to exaggerate a potential threat, but that does not mean that the threat does not exist. If there is a Hell it must be receiving new residents on a daily basis. I have never had an NDE, but I have seen otherworldly evil entities on two occasions and I’m still having trouble accepting the FACT(two others saw it, simultaneously reacted to the same visual stimulus so it HAD to be real) that I saw what I saw, BUT there is no doubt that it was supernatural because it had a body and walked through the wall.
Thanks for your intriguing comment. I don’t know how to comment back, not having more information…but it is easy to see why you might be having trouble about that apparition.
Please, read the King James Authorized Version, Jesus said we should be gentle, but never compromise on God’s Holy Word. Jesus warned so much about hell because he doesn’t want others to go there. God so loved the world that he gave his Son, Jesus Christ to atone for our sins. If that isn’t nice of God to do that, and Jesus Christ to suffer for our sins, then I don’t know what is.
Don’t forget, God is Holy and does not look upon sin. That’s why God turned his back on Jesus when he ‘became sin for us’.
Also, God said that hell was not meant for man, but the devil and his angels. But if we follow the devil, we will share his fate, being brought down to the edge of the pit- hell.
Regarding preaching and witnessing to others about the Word, you need to pray to God and ask him what you should do. Beware of people who try to interpret God’s Word. Please read “In Awe of Thy Word”, by Gail Riplinger.
May the Lord Jesus bless you!
Excellent, I am going to post this on my blog.
Great! Spreading the idea of discernment never hurts. Thank you.
In the Bible, it says “The road to salvation is very narrow, through which only a few will enter. The road to destruction is very broad, through which many will enter.”
Are we to infer from this that this may be the principle reason why there are so many hellish NDE’s reported? If so, that doesn’t seem to bode too well for most of us.
From my two NDLE’s, I have felt God’s love, forgiveness and, most incredibly to me, acceptance for who and what I am; ‘warts’ and all. I realize this doesn’t actually answer the question as to why so many hellish NDE’s seem to be reported, but it certainly makes one think.
Well, that’s only one verse, but it does contain enough truth that it gets attention. Certainly it is possible to make the inference you suggest. However, speaking statistically, although there may seem to be a lot of distressing NDEs (especially when reading Rawlings and some others), the pleasant-and-better accounts outnumber them 5 to 1; and considering that the actually hellish NDEs are the least commonly reported, that cuts the hell stories proportionately down to maybe (informed guessing but still guessing) 3-5% of all NDEs. Hellish experiences, though, get an attentive press, so it does seem as though they are far more frequent than seems to be the actual case. The fact that the numbers are relatively small may say more about our being loved, warts and all, than it does about the volume of traffic on the road to hell.
I think there are plenty of Christians out there – genuine, bible-believing, preaching Christians – that think that maybe only 10% of people will “make the cut” (I heard that figure from somewhere a while ago, and believed it myself at one time). It’s easy to think that with passages like this. But you have to consider that maybe this wasn’t meant to be taken literally, or maybe it was in reference to something else, or maybe it is a forgery!
When I read it, you initially think Jesus is speaking about your “eternal destiny”. But that word destruction could also just as easily refer to our life here on earth.
We all move in and out of periods of life and death; heaven and hell; prosperity and poverty.
We make choices each and everyday that will lead us onto either path. Jesus also said that “there are few leaders in this world” [paraphrase]. That doesn’t mean that nobody can become a leader later on.
It’s such an ugly and evil thought that God is only loves 10% of the people on the earth, when 100% of those people were made in the image of God.
Thanks, Joshua. My own view is that one can’t realistically pick just one verse, or one chapter, and say, “There. That’s IT.” We are required, I believe, if we’re really to get the whole picture, to take everything together and see which way it trends. If more people would do more homework, they might just recognize that when Jesus talks about the end-time that way, he’s never talking about it for individuals. He’s talking about how the Jewish community stands to lose everything, including their future as a nation, if they don’t shape up (which is exactly what happened thirty-some years after his death). Yes, there’s way too much really ugly and evil thinking going around.
You must remember that Jesus specifically said, “I am not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” Matthew 15:24. And elsewhere He alludes or states outright that His mission is directed at Israel and no one else. So you can surmise that anything He had to say while in His pre-resurrected body including this badly misunderstood verse/badly translated verse is for Jews alone and NOT gentiles. That automatically rules out 99.9% of humanity. In a nutshell, the wide/narrow road stuff has nothing to do with non-Jews.
The reason for a low percentage is: humans prefer secularism and I admit I covet and I pray daily that make the ‘cut’
Dear Joshua,
Which bible version are you reading? I pray you read “New Age Bible Versions” and “In Awe of Thy Word”, by Gail Riplinger. I used to believe as you did, how could God “love us” and then damn us to hell. But, we do this ourselves if we reject God’s Holy Bible (the King James Version, not the NKJV or KJV-er, or the plethora of other vile versions out there. Just because it says the bible doesn’t mean it is). Jesus already took our punishment and became sin for us. If we reject the gift he has given us, then we pay for our sins in hell- forever! Think of how many people have been misled by fake “Christians” over the decades, fake bible versions do not help strengthen faith in God’s Word. I left a church that was teaching the NKJV because they were not using the pure word of God.
Don’t forget, when asked by Pontius Pilot, Jesus said his kingdom is “not of this earth”. It is in heaven, not here. The temporary and temporal ruler of this earth is Mr. D. Evil, who is going to have his earth taken away from him when the day of the Lord occurs.
Read your KJV every day and ask God for discernment, pray before you read and the Holy Ghost will help, God willing.
God bless you! : )
What about the multitude of non-English translations of the Bible, along with any English ones in existence prior to 1611? If all of them are/were satanic too, is a Christian who pays no attention to the KJV because he cannot read or understand English thus heading for hell no matter how strong his faith in Jesus is? Why would God wait until over 1,500 years had passed since Jesus’ earthly ministry before supplying people with a Bible that could really be trusted?
We have to remember that Jesus clarified his mission from the very start: “I am not sent except to the sheep that have strayed from the house of Israel.” Matthew 15:24 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English) Consequently, ANYTHING Jesus had to say was directed to the lost sheep of Israel and to no one else. Therefore, anything Jesus said about narrow is the gate, or thrown into the fire and burned or goats and sheep has nothing to do and is not applicable in any way to non-Jews. Thus, we Gentiles can dismiss everything Jesus had to say far as the destiny of our souls go. And this is what Rawlings forgot when he was making up his hell stories
Don’t we all come from some sort of hyper-personal agenda? Isn’t it impossible to avoid be biased? Well intenioned, yes. But to him, he has gathered all the information he needs. He doesn’t desire to gather more information. I don’t think he is leading people on in that way, at least.
It is just too easy for lots of Christians to be SCARED-STIFF! that their mother, or brother, or wife is going to Hell! Christians will use the analogy, “If a truck was approaching to hit me, wouldn’t you help to get me out of the way?” Ya, of course, but there are a lot more implications in that than first meets the eye. Are we to say that, “God is a truck driving around looking to hit people?” LOL! I don’t think so.
I’m with you on that last comment, for sure! LOL
I tend to resent it when people use/misuse/cherry pick “facts” for personal agendas and to propagate personal beliefs in an effort to manipulate the thoughts and behavior of others. Even with the best of intentions I still don’t appreciate this form of proselytizing. I would much prefer that all of the facts be honestly and forthrightly put on the table, allowing others to form their own conclusions and adjust their paradigm, worldview, philosophy, beliefs and behavior accordingly – or not. I can generally tell early on when I am being spoon fed and coerced toward a certain perspective or conclusion and I am never appreciative.
Somehow, Kathy, I suspect that the only people who appreciate such proselytizing are people who think it isn’t directed at them. Thanks for that point.
I’m glad that I never even attempted to read the Bible, and my folks never forced me to go to church. I escaped!
My first experience with inner spiritual recognition began with reading the works of Wilhelm Reich. My inner contact came about through undergoing Orgone Therapy with a therapist trained by Reich. Reich wrote a book, if I remember correctly, called “The Murder Of Christ”.
Then through studies in past life (Brian Weiss) and near death, including my own experience, limited though it may be, I evolved my own conception.
As I have read the Bible (a little bit) now, I can see OUR perspective reflected in it, even though it’s been chopped up politically and exploited for centuries. Also, it’s all second hand information written down 100 yrs. after his death.
To me some of the stuff that was excluded makes more sense than what’s left. Or what’s left makes no sense without it.
The Guilt and fear I sense in people who even dare to question, the Bible is to me horrifying. Enough said. This amounts to self torture in regard to a book.
Strikes me a little bit like my saying, “Glad I never even attempted to learn jazz guitar; boy, that was a narrow escape! Have you heard how bad some of that sounds? Hurts my ears!”
All in the playing…and the understanding.
Mine too. There are some people who just don’t realize how bad they are, or are oblivious to what ever message they’re really trying to convey.
By the way, here’s a paper you might find interesting about life and improvisation in general. I’m not trying to promote my site, but since you compared my response to music, you might like this.
http://jazzguitarstartingright.com/lifeandmusic.pdf
Thanks, Dave. Haven’t had time to read it yet, but will do that asap.
Dude. I can totally relate. It’s a harsh statement, but true. After my own spiritual shift, I’ve become totally incapable of reading the bible without my ‘exclusivist’ goggles on. It just CAN’T be done.
I’m always leery of NDE accounts that provide too much detail, clearly defined doctrine, and excessive commercial appeal. Mellen-Thomas Benedict, Colton Burpo and Maurice Rawlings are at the top of my list.
It’s not that I think they’re outright liars, and I don’t begrudge any spiritually transformed person making a good living. It’s just that some ‘spiritually transformed professionals’ seem to have too many finely detailed, ready-made answers for folks looking to justify something that they wanted to believe in to begin with.
With Burpo and Rawlings, it’s fundamentalist Christianity, and with Benedict, it’s New Age wistfulness. IMO, they may help popularize the NDE, but they muddy the water of credibility at the same time.
Having said that, I’m sure I’m also guilty of holding on to a few answers that help me keep my sanity, while I stumble along my path of seeking the truth.
Interesting point. With Rawlings, it was out-and-out proselytizing–he tried so hard (and with considerable success) to terrify people into at least going through the motions of adopting the belief system he said would keep them from going to hell. And that system–any of the fundamentalisms–is all tied up with our need for stability, certainty, control of reality. Which is why, in a world that is constantly changing, fundamentalism is essentially a fragile system, always under threat.
The Burpo boy’s original NDE was like that of a lot of small children–happy and populated by kindly figures, sometimes by deceased siblings. I don’t for a moment doubt that he had the experience. Obviously, though, children’s NDEs go through the same filters as adults’ NDEs, in that translating experience into language inevitably means that names get attached to the kindly figures. Put that together with a family that is passionate about its religious beliefs and encourages the child to talk more about details, and the belief that “a little child shall lead them,” and pretty soon you get a book. And then twenty gazillion enraptured people fall into the nectar.
I suspect that there are people who, by appearance, temperament, intelligence, and interest could never become good at platform work. Motivational speakers aren’t like that; they have the personal characteristics that make them shine as motivational and inspirational speakers. After a while, I think even the most sincere of them comes to develop a kind of polyurethane shine, which may be the problem you (and others) have with Benedict.
The underlying question may be, how to keep a genuine spiritual-breakthrough experience from tarnishing through public exposure? Is it possible to keep egos and private agendas out of the mix? Or was it a wise move for the old esoteric movements of the world to keep a tight grip on secrecy? But in today’s democratic enthusiasm, is that even possible–or desirable?
Very interesting discussion, to which I can only say “amen!” 🙂
Thanks, Sandy. You help!
I have to take this opportunity to add that I am also so weary of the use of the “life review” (with the emphasis on “you will experience all the hurt you every caused another”) as a tool to guilt, restrain and manipulate the masses. It is a slightly different version of God sees all and will punish your every less than perfect thought, feeling or act. Dr. George Rodania’s life review is far more convincing without the moralizing: “At some point I underwent what has been called the life-review process, for I saw my life from beginning to end all at once. I participated in the real life dramas of my life, almost like a holographic image of my life going on before me – no sense of past, present, or future, just now and the reality of my life. It wasn’t as though it started with birth and ran along to my life at the University of Moscow. It all appeared at once. There I was. This was my life. I didn’t experience any sense of guilt or remorse for things I’d done. I didn’t feel one way or another about my failures, faults, or achievements. All I felt was my life for what it is. And I was content with that. I accepted my life for what it is.”
I admit, reading about other people’s life reviews has gotten pretty stale. Curious, though, how you see it as “a tool to guilt, restrain and manipulate the masses.” These are just individual people recounting what feels to them like the most amazing experience; are you maybe projecting a bit of your own feelings onto their intent? As for Rodania, he was quite an experience all by himself! Amazing guy.
There seems to be countless examples in books, lectures and personal accounts framed as “warnings” about suffering for one’s deeds during the “life review”. My feelings and intuition when I encounter afterlife moralizing is that it is done to to control others. No one talks about experiencing the suffering and death of the countless animals eaten. Or justice personnel experiencing the suffering of those arrested, incarcerated and/or executed at their professional hand. Or the suffering of grounded teenagers restricted as wise and lawful disciplinary measures. Or the suffering of countless others as a result of downsizing to save a company. Or the scientist experiencing the suffering of experimental lab animals or doctors experiencing the suffering of their patients that experience deadly side effects of their efforts. I have noticed what seems to be a very pedestrian form of moralizing trending in the recounting of the experiences of suffering during life review.
Kathy, thanks for clarifying your position. I suppose that when I read an account of how someone experienced an event, I tend not to see it as moralizing unless they’re specifically applying their experience to other people. However, when anyone tries to present their own experience as representing Universal Truth (especially if they get heavy-handed about it!), I share your distaste. Lots of that going around! Thanks for your comments.
I see and feel my life review every day while I’m still alive. I’m fully aware of all the carnage emotional and otherwise that I’ve caused, not only to other people, but to all living things. Within, I see all of it all the time. I didn’t know any better back then. God gave man dominion over the Earth and all the animals???
As I walk up the path to my front door, I take great care not to step on the ants. Self defense and survival are the only justifications for taking life. cruelty of any kind in any form has no excuse.
I googled Dr. George Rodonaia and the first thing to pop up is a video excerpt from Rawling’s (of all people!!!) “To Hell and Back” 90 minute video. I absolutely see red when people (and Rawlings doesn’t miss the chance either) drag out this ridiculous argument, “Don’t be fooled by people who say they met God and He is all merciful and loving. It’s a trick of the devil, for remember Paul says, ‘Even satan can change himself into an angel of light.’ ” They don’t realize what they are actually saying: that satan has the power–a power greater than God’s, obviously–to hijack a soul on its way to heaven and divert it to an entirely different dimension or realm where he can then masquerade as God and pretend to be this loving and merciful Deity in order to give people a false sense of security. I mean these fundamentalists will use any argument in the book, no matter how ridiculous, in their insane determination to bludgeon religion into people.
Jack, thanks. You make a much-overlooked point. You’ve nailed exactly the problem with too rigid a need for order and control, that it leads to disastrous (and hopelessly illogical) consequences. In this case, even God loses.
Wow, check out this synchronous event! I just received this in an email from the ACIST Experiencer Forum – how interesting! Anyway this just released study may suggest that it may be a cultural meme.
“Religions are thought to encourage us to be good. But a specific aspect of religion may be the key to achieving that: hell. A new study indicates that crime is lower in societies where people’s religious beliefs contain a strong punitive component than in other places…The new findings, Shariff said, fit into a growing body of evidence that supernatural punishment emerged in human culture as a very effective innovation to get people to act more ethically.” Excerpted from Religion: It’s the hell part that makes us behave, study finds:
http://www.world-science.net/othernews/120622_hell.htm
I got a report about the study a few days ago; pulled up the article but haven’t had time yet to read it carefully. I’ll be posting about it, though. Then today the ACISTE post came up. Thanks for this link.
Thanks for your posts, Kathy and Nan. I too have been troubled by the seemingly punitive/fear element of some NDE’s, even if its not the experiencer’s intent. For the same reason, I have trouble with some ideas of karma. If we all get what we “deserve”, we’re all in big trouble. Where is there room for mercy and forgiveness? I’ve also noticed the selectiveness of the perceived “sins”. Where are the the other sins you mentioned: systemic sin, complicity in oppression, sins that the person has no awareness of b/c of culture?
My usual response to that kind of question, Sandy, is to be immensely grateful that those decisions are above my pay grade. Not to be flip, but there’s so much we don’t know, can’t know, aren’t built to know…and although I’m sure many people would accuse me of cowardice, I honestly try not to spend much time on the unanswerables. I do not and cannot know God’s mind; and when it comes right down to it, I don’t want to try second-guessing the Universe. So, I try do what’s possible with what I have to work with and hope for the best. It’s kind of interesting to me that the older I get (which is getting very close to being really Old), the easier it is not to be aggravated by the big, complex human explanations for what’s out there and how people think they should operate, whether religious doctrine or metaphysical cosmologies; it’s easier and easier to let them drift off like balloons while I go back to watching the birds out on the marsh. Oh, that does smack of avoidance, doesn’t it? I call it peace.
Greetings Sandy,
Exactly! That’s why it seems so manipulative to me. Not to mention the fact that this is no Shangri La. In a perfect world/creation we could expect perfection but when I consider the gauntlets that many call their lives; when I consider those who are living fates worse than death; when I consider the circumstances of disease, disability, mental illness, poverty, violence, aggression, scarcity, despair, homelessness, bullying, hate, fear, starvation, anxiety, depression, pain, suffering, death, etc. ad nauseum that create the conditions of our existence and the fabric of our culture simultaneous with the idea of “judgment” I am outraged! I think the judgement should go the other way – who would create these conditions and circumstances and cause the created to endure them and to what end? But that’s just me…
Kathy, that’s just you…and the beginnings of philosophy…and theology…and psychology… You don’t go to the shallow end of the pool!
You are correct! I have been way over my head with this stuff for as long as I can remember and the deep end just keeps getting deeper!!!
I’ll be happy to share my float.
How wonderful of you! It’s always good to be competently companioned!
LOL Yes indeed.
As always, thanks for everyone’s posts. I also notice myself becoming more tolerant of ambiguity as I get older and “wiser”. Here’s a quote from Sam Keen, that I recently came across: (is this synchronicity? 🙂 Sam Keen says:
“I don’t know the ultimate destiny of all things faithful, vulnerable or fragile…..But I refuse the hidden pretension of omnipotence, of either the religious of secular variety. My mind cannot plumb the limits of the possible. Therefore, I choose to trust the mystery from which all blessing flows….If I am to trust the source from which I came–this unique Sam Keen……I must also trust the the dark destiny into which I disappear at death. I am enfolded in a Being-becoming-itself, a God for whom perpetual dying is a way of creating……..It is both the agony and the beauty of the human condition to be ignorant of our ultimate origin and destiny. In the luminous darkness through which we travel on our human journey, we are often lonely but never alone. Road-weary, overwhelmed by the magnitude of the difficulties we face during our brief days, we are tempted to despair or to settle for cheap optimism. But in the deep place of the spirit, we are moved and called forth to this ongoing adventure, by the yearning, restless and creative One who-though called by the ten thousand names of God-is still clothed in marvelous silence.” Hymns to an Unknown God, by Sam Keen.
Many thanks, Sandy.
Wow! That’s an amazing thought and so worth of pondering! Thanks!!!
One thing has always bothered me about how Dr. Rawlings recounts reviving Mr. McKaig: Rawlings admits he was an atheist at the time of the revival. If that was so then how would he know how to perfectly recite the “Sinner’s Prayer” for McKaig to repeat? No atheist I’ve ever known or read about has the vaguest notion of what the Sinner’s Prayer is, the major components of which are exactly what Rawlings told McKaig to repeat: that Jesus is the Son of God; that by believing in Him He can save your soul and keep you out of hell.
The way Rawlings recounts the story just does not line up with what would realistically have taken place. Rawlings either had to already have been a Christian at the time of this event or some one next to him who was a Christian had to have recited the Sinner’s prayer instead.
What do you make of this?
What I make of this, Jack, is that you have pinpointed exactly the kind of problem that has kept Rawlings’ research on the “kind of suspect” list. Too many reports that don’t quite add up, quotes from a patient that change from one book to the next, facts that are a few degrees off center. And now this, which “just does not line up with what would realistically have taken place.” Good analysis on your part. Too bad for all the experiencers who deserved better.
Not wanting to digress too far from Rawlings, but not knowing where else to post this question after having read your own NDE account, did you 1. ever feel threatened with physical harm from these entities, or did you feel at any point that you had the power to, if you had chosen, just yell out at them “**** You!” (forgive the levity) and they would then have left you alone 2. ever feel that at any point you could have repelled them by calling on the name of Jesus, which would have taken you to more pleasant realms, as many NDE’ers have said they did 3. develop a belief that, if you knew then what you know now, your experience would have been vastly different just from the knowledge you have absorbed in the meantime from talking with fellow experiencers whose NDE’s were of the pleasant type.
Sorry for the delay. I’m scrambling to prepare two presentations for the IANDS conference next week, plus getting the paperback into the world–everything else is taking a back seat (as you can tell by the dearth of recent posts).
1. No sense of any physical harm.
2. The circles were so unfamiliar yet with such authority, it never occurred to me to try to repel them, though I did try to argue them down. Likewise, although I looked for God, it never occurred to me to call for Jesus (lots of theology in this answer!)
3. I doubt that the experience would have been any more tolerable, had I known then what I do now, principally because it involved annihilation, and at 28 and in childbirth and with a toddler at home, a sturdy ego is essential, not something one can easily see wiped out. Knowing about the light-filled NDEs makes a big difference, I hope, in how I would respond to such an experience now; but the ego state is far different also.
Thanks, Jack.
Might I disagree?
It very well could have been another Christian standing next to him that told it to the dieing man.
However there are several other explanations (explained explicitly or not). 1) He might have been an evangelical christian at another point in his life. 2) The “sinner’s prayer” is so widely used and promulgated in the American Evangelical Christian movement that it is not unreasonable to think that he could have heard somewhere before, even on numerous occasions. It is also not unlikely that he might have had “the gospel” preached to him before, or been in church where this prayer is used.
It may be a missing link this man’s chains of ‘lies’. But a very small link it seems to me.
I’m not saying he did a good job of this or that, but “realism” is sometimes much broader and goes out much further than first thought.
I hope that makes sense.
Excellent points, and thoughtful of you. You are quite right that given the locale, a considerable knowledge of evangelical responses including the sinner’s prayer would be likely.
One thing I’d like to observe is that I would not consider the manifold weaknesses in Rawlings’ reporting “lies.” Sloppiness, yes, but not outright lies. He was by nature a kind man, and in his writings as in his life at that point, an over-the-top committed, believing, convinced fundamentalist Evangelical who genuinely believed with his whole heart that people could be saved from an eternity of torment in hell if only he could persuade them of the urgency of believing in Jesus as he did. Or at least of saying they believed, and trying to do so, which they would do if he could show them how awful the alternative would be. In my view, a lie is told with deliberate intent to deceive, which I do not for a moment believe of Rawlings. What I think is that for him, a bit of shading and weighting a narrative in the interest of helping save someone’s soul–well, that would be doing his Christian duty and saving others from the deceits of Satan. (No need for outraged rebuttals if you think otherwise. Just my view of the situation, despite my inability to fathom the overall fundamentalist point of view.)
quite right.
I think that if one of the scenarios you mention were the case, Rawlings would have clearly spelled it out i.e. if he’d been a former Christian, now atheist, he would have said as much; same with whether or not someone was standing next to him who recited the prayer for him. But I have watched his video numerous times and he talks exactly as he writes, “And it was at that moment that THIS atheist (pointing to himself) became a believing Christian”.
Not to get too far afield in theology, but the Bible makes clear in numerous passages that ALL men will be saved eventually (I don’t know about the women, however, just kidding). “God will have ALL men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” 1 Timothy
Therefore the issue of having a terrifying NDE becomes almost moot, as we can be assured that regardless of what we experience in the immediacy after death eventually ALL men will find the road to heaven.
I pray with all my might you are right, brother. I’m going to read 1 Timothy right now…
Charles Mckaig was my father in law for 15 years. I met and talked with Dr. Rawlings about his work many times. You ask why he reported so many hellish NDES… Read and listen more than you write. Rawlings said many times that Hellish NDES are forgotten VERY soon after resussitation while Heavinly NDES are remembered. He was prompting physicians to document these events immediately before the patient forgets. it’s that simple and you missed the whole message.
Jerry, sorry I wasn’t clearer. Yes, I do know what Dr. Rawlings said. However, other physicians have not found his claim about immediate documentation to be true in their practices or their research studies. See especially the very detailed studies published by cardiologist (and fellow Evangelical) Michael Sabom in Georgia. So, I continue to say that although I do not for an instant doubt the sincerity of Dr. Rawlings’ belief in what he repeatedly said, his claim has not been supported by other researchers.
Jerry, with all due respect for You and Dr.Rawlings’ work specially for allowing us to see cases like that of Dr.Whitaker,also I want to say that we better listen to the message of Dr.Rawlings ( after seeing a few days ago the body of a close relative who die with a face of untold terror as last expression,believe me, we better listen to Dr.Rawlings ) and considering, at least in my experience, that the percent number of hellish ndes is really higher than accepted (I found in my country, I live outside the USA, around a 40%) Seems to me that is a perfectly possible question to ask why he reported so many hellish ndes and that in the question and in the way it is presented is nothing against that wonderful man that was Dr.Rawlings .
Also allow me to say as an nder that and nde can never be forgotten is really a milestone in ones life, if the experience is forgotten may be something else but surely was not an nde hellish or not.
And let me say that the wise and profound work and compromise of Nancy in the field of distressing nde is out of this world and deserves a profound respect, she touches the lives of a lot of people worldwide with her wisdom and cleverness.
I really can’t comment after such extravagant words. But thank you, Guillermo. We’ll just keep on trying to figure it all out.
Guillermo, I cannot know what was in Dr. Rawlings’ heart when he wrote his books. All I can give you are the cold, hard fact which are these: thousands of veridical (that is scientifically verified to be classified as true) NDE’s have been recorded and studied by Dr’s like Sabom, Long, van Lommel and Greyson; most of these veridical NDE’s were experienced by non-Christians who do not profess Jesus as their savior, whether they were of non-Christian denominations (i.e. Muslims), atheists, or agnostics; if Christian fundamentalist dogma were true then ALL of them would have immediately gone to fiery torment in hell to await the Great Judgement; in fact, the very opposite occurred: it was the Christian fundamentalists such as Mary Baxter, Bill Weiss, and a whole slew of ordinary Christians (pastors, priests or otherwise) who have stories of descents into hell. The vast majority of non-Christians reported experiences ranging from pleasant to ecstatic, but nearly all report meeting a God or God-figure of immense love for them with all their warts, sins, faults, etc and absolutely NO judgement pronounced upon them, and the classic fundamentalist portrait of a wrathful, vengeful God totally absent from the scene. This flies in the face of how Christians describe what awaits the non-believer at death. In a word, the Christian fundamentalists just have it ALL WRONG.
Jack, when I mentioned Dr.Rawlings I had in mind nothing about Christian fundamentalism, in fact living almost 6.000 miles away from USA I know very little about that narrow minded movement because is not so spread outside the USA, what I had in mind was that part of the population that never think or reflect about Life and Death, are armoured against any argument while they are living the day to day life but when they face the hard moment to die, they look back, see an empty or even evil life and is too late to reflect, too late to change, to late to do anything and they realize without any doubt for the first time that there is something beyond this life (…accountable to somebody for something perhaps?… a heaven or a hell perhaps?). I have seen some of this cases of death of evil humans beings (only a description, not a judgement) in a few month and believe me is too sad a situation, too sad, is hell on earth for them and in part for me also, I’m guilt-ridden because I am not clever or wise enough nor can help the work of all the Drs and Phds and researchers you mentioned to say something effective to help while there is time, with this in mind I think that perhaps for that set of people a Rawlings style may be a good aproach to make them wake up when there is still time to change, in this particular case for this people ( I’m entering a minefield now saying this … I guess) may be Dr.Rawlings was doing a good job although he was wrongly biased and wrong in his fundamentalism, but please let me know how can you approach the kind of people I described before if you have a better solution.
By the way let me say that there is a problem with the words “scientifically verified” because the definition of the object of science is: object of science is anything in time and space and an NDE is outside of time and space, speaking about NDEs we stumble a little about words we need either new words or an extended definition of science.
I had an NDE decades ago and I am Christian, I believe in Jesus but I dont practice any religión and seems to me that all religions, my respect to all religions anyway , are no more than our spiritual childhood and so the Christian fundamentalism is, to say the least, childish and in some cases a very dangerous approach indeed.
I do not think and I did not say that a fundamentalist dogma is a key to heaven, in fact part of what you see in an NDE is that in this earthly life there are no “magic words” our work here is all about real Love in action, real Truth in action, real ability to decide between truth an error and a clear willpower to follow the Truth, is a hard journey of transformation and discernment, very far away from any set of religious dogma and if you are lucky enough you can complete your journey of transformation in a whole lifetime and then you may face death with open eyes and peace in your soul, otherwise trust in a set of religious dogmas or magic words is cheating ourselves with hard consequences and is very far away of what I tried to say in the comment, sorry because I was not clear.
Guillermo, here to my way of thinking based on careful reading, is the core of the problem: the issue of whether or or not we have either a hellish after-life experience or a pleasant one is rooted, at least here in the USA, in how the Christian televangelist clique of “fundamentalist ministers” (most are not legitimately ordained ministers, by the way) portray hell to the gullible masses they prey on. Their favorite line is, “Give tithes to my organization or you are robbing God (and them, by extension) and this will cause God to judge you and then cast you into hell for all eternity” The prosperity gospel is snaking itself around the globe and its main component is the use of fear and guilt to bludgeon people into giving every last cent they have to these pernicious organizations and ministries. How does this affect our NDE’s? Well, if I have lived in fear and guilt all my life because I have been fed this toxic message since I was born and have not freed myself of it by the time I die, then when I die this fear will follow me into the afterlife and most likely will result in a negative experience, at least initially. Most of the reading I have done on NDE’s cite fear and negativity as the No.1 influence in how our afterlife experience will go. Rawlings’s heart may have been in the right place but I cannot condone his fear-based approach to preparing for death as doing anything but harm to the people who receive his message. Nearly every person who had NDE’s came back to tell of them say that the No. 1 important message they came back with was to treat people kindly and with love; that man-based “religion” had no bearing in how they would be received by God, only the love they showed to their fellow man. Just know that the best thing people can do is to completely divorce themselves from the pernicious influences of fundamentalism of any sort, Christian or non-Christian, and focus entirely on trying to live a moral life and treating others as you would want them to treat you. This 99.99% guarantees you a pleasant after-death experience and right-standing with God.
Dear Nancy,
i am highly interested in near-death experiences for almost about 10 years and i have read and thought a lot about it.
Yesterday i found you, Dr. Rawlings and others to have appeared at the John Ankerberg Show and i want to comment on this discussion because – in my humble opinion – it shows me some interesting things.
First let me start with an impression about the majority of the participants that are obviously all “fundamental christians” – except the two kind ladies in this show – who did not behave as godalike patriarchs, but as human beings in the best sense of the word. I have the strong impression, – backed up with my own experiences with “reborn christians” – that most of them if not all do not really know what love is and what it *means*. They claim to have a direct relation to the western embodiment of love – Jesus -, but their “fruits”, – at least for me – often speak for themselves.
Let’s substantiate this a little more.
A man in this show – i think it was a theologian – said with some expression of intellectual cleverness – that Satan has the ability to camouflage himself as an angel of light. This statement was clearly made to suggest to the audience that positive near-death experiences are delusional, dangerous, not trustworthy and with this wanted to mix up the audiences’ god-given differenciation between good and evil, love and hate and so on (that is deeply inscribed into every human beings’ heart) from the feed to the head. Because love has nothing to do with doctrine.
For me, such argumentative lines of reasoning from those evangelists somewhat echo Nitzsche’s emotional and intellectual distraction, not only because we easily could do the next step to destroy a listeners’ basic trust in benevolence – *by claiming that even the whole story of Jesus itself was designed by Satan to get his hands on all those fundamental christians who take the bible to be literally true in every word and terrorize their nearest with terrible demotion in the name of love*.
But also with paraphrasing Goethes words – “I am Part of that Power which would The Good ever do, and ever does the Evil” those christians neither know what love really is nor know what they do to others – when permanently judging horribly over other people.
I do judge too over them, but i do it not in the inhuman way they do, because i believe that every human can extend one’s emotional and intellectual knowledge and self-reflection. The latter seems to me to be a poor gift amongst those fundamental evangelists, and i think there are reasons for this.
It is well known from psychoanalysis that it’s a hard individual human task to face oneself with one’s shadows that have built in every of us in the early childhood due to misuse, abuse and loneliness and so on. It is much easier to project out those shadows into the environment and even project it to an evil entity. Of course, the accumulation of negativity in our world is a hell out of itself and i don’t doubt that this hell is in its accumulated vibrational essence a metaphysical, unphysical place that attracts everyone who resonates with the vibrations of hatefull, judgemental thoughts and emotions. If one isn’t able to integrate such feelings and emotions during his or her lifetime, it may be happen that he or she finds itself in such a horrible place (this does NOT want to explain why some people nonetheless have encountered such a place inspite of the lack of some mentionable personal capital sins).
But i would differenciate this hell from the picture that is spread out by the evangelists. My definition of hell is an accumulation of all the evil and bad things human beings have done over the course of time – and everybody who is willing to leave this place – if he or she is caught in it after physical death – can do so by orientating his thoughts on love and grace – in the name of Jesus. This may be not easy to do, because we know that in such states of existence the mind is in a state of forgetness about all the earthly issues that it had known or heard of during its lifetime. Nonetheless i believe not in eternal punishment for people that have not consciously murdered, violated or otherwise terrorized their nearest. But the last word about the eternal existence of some human beings in hell – maybe Hitler or someone other like normal people that had a hellish near-death experience – is not up to everyone of us, but only up to God. It is also *not* upon having accepted Jesus as the lord and savier but upon having accepted giving love and compassion away as the only real value that one can take with him/her during death.
I asked myself during watching the show: who are those people to take the role of God and to judge about many many people we even do not know personally, we do not know their lifetime accomplishment, the problems they had to overcome and last but not least – the plans God has and had with them and the love they *donated* to others?
Isn’t it a joke by itself that one theologican stated in that TV show that blissfull near-death experiences are indicators of Satans tricks he played already in paradise? Well, it is stated that Satan was an intelligent being, the most intelligent amongst the animals. Surprisingly he was also more intelligent than Adam and Eve, the human beings, because he knew something they did not know or even guess.
According to the theologican in the show, the snake told Adam and Eve that there is no death, that they would be like God if they would taste the forbidden fruits and that they would realize the difference between good and bad. I would very very likely ask the theologican a question: why is it stated in the bible that Satan “was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.” Obviously the snake told Adam and Eve at least two *truths*: They realized what is good and bad and they became – in the words of God: one of “us”. The third statement of the snake was surely false: They couldn’t eat from the three of life, although God promised it to them in the bible some verses before. Now the theologican may state that Gods word is nonetheless trustworthy because eternal life is nonetheless guaranteed in the cosmic sheme: as eternal hell for the sinners. But in my opinion that’s a very poor salvation of the consistence of the bible’s verses taken as a whole.
Let us now take a more differenciated view on what happened in the garden eden and how this could relate to the claim of the theologican, who stated the following:
1. Blissfull near-death experiences are the old trick of Satan. He suggests eternal life and knowledge of good and bad and being “one of us”, namely a part of Gods royal household.
2. Blissfull near-death experiences are an expression of what is said about Satan to be able to camouflage himself as a being of light.
Two questions relate to this kind of interpretation:
1. Why does Satan NOT camouflage itself as a being of light in the cases of hellish near-death experiences?
2. Why can Satan emit love, compassion and all the good things we would easily attribute to a loving God? Why is he able to do that, inspite of the fact that the bible says that no good is within him at all?
If those love and compassion are only a reflection of the experiencers own ability to love – used by Satan to give a false impression on him – why should those people be eternally chaught in hell? Escpecially why should that be only on the grounds of them having not accepted some deeply contradictionary doctrines that jeers on all the intellectual an emotional abilities God himself gave to the human beings (remember they were built upon the picture of God himself)? If God is omnipotent, he would be able to take out of hell the souls he want to. If he isn’t such omnipotent to do this, – something obviously went wrong with creating other creatures and furthermore the claim of his very omnipotence is clearly a false claim. The creation would simply be the worst possible accident ever imaginable!!!
In my opinion we should raise the possibility that the light that is seen in the blissfull near-death experiences is neither God nor Satan, but maybe only a single aspect of God (maybe the breath of God, like Pamela Reynolds reported). This would explain why some experiencers do report the light to be somewhat “unpersonal”. We also should raise the possiblity that the knowledge that is experienced in many blissfull near-death experiences is not new knowledge that comes for the first time into the soul of the experiencer – but is old knowledge from the state after Adam and Eve had eaten from the three of awareness but before they were expelled form the garden eden.
So what? Do the evangelicians really now know what is good and bad for all of us in general? Why do they claim to know it? On the grounds of having eaten the fruits of awareness or on the grounds of biblical/personal revelations?
I don’t want to answer these questions because I consider them deeply irrelevant from a non-intellectual point of view. Nobody on earth can claim to have absolute truth about everything – especially not about the grandness of God that they never experienced in full degree but instead only on the weird grounds of intellectually solving the contradictory statements of the bible for themselves.
Instead I want to take a look at the “fruits”, the behaviour of those kind of people. It was very obviously for me to see that there is a certain kind of attitude to such people that I only can describe as “I am the governor of God” or even “I am Jesus reloaded, look at my heaven-send authority”. In my opinion Mr. Rawlings does play God/Jesus when claiming he has the “miraculous formula” to spell out by his patient to be saved.
This is quite a patriarchian pattern and I am not surprised that they play it out against the two nice women– human beings like Eve was – that did not judge over others as the men in the round did so heavily. I assume they did it on the grounds of psychological identification with Jesus and even God (a hubris in my opinion if that’s true) and on the grounds that indeed they still are naked today, but aren’t aware of it (not because they are in paradiese again, but), because they hide their shadows mentioned above before themselves. I also assume that they saw the naïve Eve in the two ladies and tried to blame the whole misery of being expelled from paradiese on women that often are emotionally much more differentiated than men.
Let us be differentiating too and take a look at the different meanings of “hell” in the bible. Obviously they do not all mean the same, because they are lend from different greek or other native languages like hebrew or something else and their according mythology. Unfortunately I lost the website-adress with those informations, a site from an experiencer of a negative NDE who is into research of the different contextual meanings of hell in the bible. If anyone knows the site or related sites, please let me know.
When Mr. Rawlings states that one cannot make a mistake in delivering one’s whole life to Jesus (whatever this means in pratical detail), i would doubt that on the grounds i described here. These grounds have to do with how i treat other people, their needs and fears and with the meaning of love that we all should explore as deep as possible during our lifetimes. It could easily turn out that many of those who delivered their whole lifes to Jesus (again, whatever this could mean afterwards in detail), did not serve the love we should, but served a lie – that exclusively they alone spelled upon themselfes. In this case, there would be really noone to blame, neither God nor Satan, but only themselfes.
One thing I know for sure: If I am able to treat my cat or my nearest good, inspite of them not always doing what I want them (for several reasons; one reason could be they do not know it better in certain situations), I wouldn’t send them to eternal terror – because I too don’t want to be send into eternal terror. On those basis it is at least highly doubtable for me that God would do this at the very end of a humans single life-development on earth, despite the fact that I really don’t know God’s thoughts and plans in general or in detail.
A very big “thank you,” Steven. I will add only that the eight-hour taping of those shows (all were done on the same day) was one of the most difficult experiences of my life. I’ve never, ever, in any other situation, been in the presence of such malevolence. There was an almost erotic sense to their engagement with judgmentalism. After a long flight home, all I wanted to do was shower over and over, and even after using all the hot water, I still felt the uncleanness. So, thank you for this thoughtful analysis.
Dear Nancy,
thank you also very much for your comments on my post.
I thought such remarks would be usefull for all of us who seek the truth and not the easy way, so i did develop my thoughts for others and publish it here. Many thanks too for your work and your book – which i will hopefully order via amazon.
I write from germany and i am always shocked when i see american evangelists preaching. When watching, it seems to me that on most such preaches there weeps so much unhonesty and deception of themself and to others out of this, that i am regularily forced to think about what would be if such persons would come into big political functions. I know well that even here in germany those christians have the goal to occupy as much of our political functions as possible.
The reason why i write this, is, because the need for potency and control are the motors that drive such people and they obviously do it regardless of the price we all pay it for and regardless of sacrificing some truths about human conscience and knowledge of the heart. The best example that i know was George Bush junior who was a former alcoholic and was “reborn” with the help of Billy Graham – the latter was also involved in advicing Bush to go into the iraq war.
So, such people are all but not hazard-free and in my own country, the main party (CDU) is also “blissed” with a huge double standard and lies are their daily agenda. This becomes obvious when we look at what happens to a system that does now begin to crash – the financial system.
As you maybe know, the worldwide money system is exclusively grounded on “guilt”, debts. Buisiness banks are allowed to create money out of nothing as credits (via balance sheet extension) and borrow this money to others. But they don’t do it once – every money that is not fiat money is borrowed up to 100 times to different customers. The compound interests for the bank are then to be raised by the customers – but not out of nothing, but via taking the money from other people (via new products, redundancies and/or criminality).
Alone for the upper 10 percent that own 90 percent of the money in the world, the involved banks have also to raise immense amounts of money for the customers compound interests that they cannot create via balance sheet extension. They also must take away the money from others – via the many tricks we know in daily life and in our jobs. So, banks are allowed to create fiat money, but there is no way to create the customers compound interests also via fiat money – because if they would do so, the financial thermodynamics would break down and nobody would go to work anymore.
The people which sit at the upper 10 percent of the money mountains are in most cases of the same kind as the preachers i spoke of. They have the same double standards – and the same malevolent behaviour.
Now we can ask: Why is it the case that our financial system is built exclusively on “guilt”, means debts, and why are the consequences of it that there has to be inhuman competition (of resources) and economic growth – to serve the overall compound interests?
If i would believe in a personified devil, it would seem to me that this is somewhat a devilish installation to enslave people. But i think it is a human invention that goes surely back to at least the days of Jesus and the goldsmiths in the middle age.
I have no doubt that much of the leading evangelists and their organizations are as much engaged in money than they are engaged in control over others belief systems. I looked at the website of John Ankerberg and there, one can buy packages like the “mormon package”, the “how can god help you” package, the “Islam package” and even the “how can god help you – special package” and so on. Every package for about 99 Dollars.
I evaluate all this as doubtfull and socially ill and as dangerous for the whole society as for example books like “the secret” also are. Money talks all languages available, that is the main lesson for me out of such things, but it cannot talk the emotional language built on love (thanks to God for that!). I have no doubts about for example “the secret” is used by a widespread population of human beings to try to fullfill their “secrets”, be them money-oriented or otherwise, but these secret wishes surely don’t come in most cases honestly from the heart (i read much commentaries on amazon about this book and i knew some people who were engaged in light work), but from greed.
By the way, the two assets “depts” and “accounts” do anihilate each other when calculated with each other, because they both are a virtual value, fiat money, not a real value. This reminds me of quantum mechanical implications, because it is a scientific statement that you can borrow energy from “the vacuum” via Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle. But this principle does not apply to the pair energy/time, it only does apply to the pair place/momentum. I think it is no coincidence that many books like “the secret” do mention quantum physics to back up their claims (without knowing that Heisenbergs uncertainty principle cannot be applied in this way to the “vacuum”).
But our whole culture is built on the belief that it is possible to get something for free, from nothing. Even Stephen Hawking, – in his earlier years, believed that the universe could have been coming into existence via quantum fluctuations.
Please let me end with my own experience of agony. This experience is much similar to your own experience Nancy and therefore i want to mention it here.
I first heard of your experience when i read Pim van Lommels Book (i think it was mentioned there). It reminded me of something i experienced at the age of about 10 years.
I had the flue and was lying in bed, my parents had furnished my new room and i had to move from the floor my parents and my sister had their rooms to the room under the house top.
It was afternoon, my father was at work and my mother said to me she would go to the drugstore to buy me some medicaments. I had temperature about 40 degrees Celsius and i had fear to let be alone. After my mother left the house, i faded away. I do not remember the details, but it seemed to me that i had an unusual perspective on the bed where “i” was lying. More and more the whole scence faded away ans transformed into – absolutely nothing. I realized that existence, my life, my mother and all my values were only an imagination of myself. This was absolutely horrible, because if one is caught within absolutely – infinite – nothing, there is no chance to find an “emergency exit”. I remember that i felt all that i had experienced as a human being, was only a dream, a cosmic joke of infinite degree. I also remember that i searched for an emergency exit, but “wherever” i oriented my attention, i only found “more of the same” – namely nothing. It felt like i would turn round and round in a gordian knot, where all opposites were set up from the feet to the top, the outer space was within me and the void within me was out.
Suddenly, when it got harder and harder to stand this terror and pain, and when i realized that i could less and less remember my previous life, – i woke up in my bed from my own crying and at first i was still so deep identified with this experience that i wondered who is crying here and were “i” am.
I think this experience had an impact on my further life, but i also want to mention that as a little child i was always a fearfull child and i think i had somewhat an attachment problem with my mother and my father. They weren’t able to give much real empathy and i was really a sensible child that found every emotional dischord in others very rapidly. I also must add that already as a child i thought a lot about the possible existence of God and even there i was very unsure – in an unsure world. So, i think, at least my own experience can be explained at least partly by psychology and my own psychical development as a child.
After this experience i often dreamt i could fly and those dreams were very nice and comfortable. I think it is possible that in such experiences as mine, there could be involved a lot of dissociation from oneself and i think exactly people that have a huge ability to be emphatic to others could be more fragile for such encounter. Because emphaty is somewhat a kind of dissociating from one’s own emotional dynamics. Nancy, I would be very interested what you think about this approach to demystify a little bit those kinds of “annihilation”-experiences.
Steven, let me think about this a bit before I try responding. Stay tuned!
Dear Nancy,
i hope that my lines of thought did not convey a kind of “conspiracy” world view.
I think it is all about belief systems, be them financial (the financial system is highly dependend on the beliefs of the sharholders!), evangelical or intellectual. Once they are installed, they do execute themselves almost automatically (unconsciously) and permanentely prove their own consistence! One thing i realized is, that the property of consistence may be nice, but it is at a lower level than the property of truth, because thruth does not necessarily depend on everyday logics of opposites.
I think even my negative encounter was a manisfestation of a thought/belief system, namely the one that opposites do exclude each other, cannot be transformed and cannot meet at any point.
I will stay tuned and want to thank you again for your work – i have now ordered your book and am very excited to get it soon!
Best wishes!
Yes thank you for the insightful scrutiny. I’m being sarcastic btw. Give me a break. Your opinion would actually matter if you went to medical school and completed a residency. When you have some credentials then post a critique. Please stop trying to apply the scientific method to something that can’t fit into that framework.
Jnoress, I’m not sure which of the previous commenters (including myself) you are addressing, but here’s a brief response. If you are talking to me, I’ll just say that my view of the clinical aspects of Rawlings’ reports has been formed primarily by the long-term research of Board-certified cardiologist and Emory University faculty member Michael Sabom, MD.
You are correct that there are aspects of near-death experiences that do not fit into the framework of scientific method. However, flaws in research design, data collection, and reporting are highly material to the reliability of the published work. Whenever personal bias influences those elements, it is relevant to the science.
Whomever you’re addressing, it’s worth pointing out, I think, that people of all descriptions and educational levels have near-death experiences and must try to find an explanation for them. The explanations differ (in a range from downright loony to factually responsible or questionable, to profound) according to the content available to each individual. Most experiencers are not clinicians, but we all do our best to muddle through. Some do it more successfully, though not necessarily more factually, than others. In reacting to the opinions of people we don’t agree with, I believe that forbearance goes a long way.
Thanks for contributing.
Why did Maurice Rawlings report so many hellish NDEs? – Dancing Past the Dark – Dancing Past the Dark Log on http://familylobby.com/priscilla/
Nancy, I know you’re familiar with Don Piper’s testimony. I believe it to be factual insofar as he was pronounced dead at the accident scene (and if you read a description of his horrific injuries you couldn’t believe otherwise) Now Piper claims he went immediately to heaven–no tunnel, no being of Light, no hovering above his body–none of the classic events described by Moody and everyone else, for that matter. One second he was hit and the next second he was at the pearly gates surrounded by deceased friends and family members. Do you have any thoughts about why his NDE breaks all the rules, so to speak?
Jack, sorry–I responded earlier but it evidently did not “take.”
Although the ‘Moody elements’–OBE, tunnels, light, entities–are common in NDEs, they are by no means universal. A genuine near-death experience may contain none of those yet still contain enough other elements to have powerful and lasting effects. In that sense, then, Don Piper’s NDE is breaking no “rules.” (This may be the only instance of my ever supporting a Piper belief!)
However, there is another respect in which his account may be unique: In my 31 years of studying NDEs, his is the only one I can think of which mentions pearly gates. Because NDEs do not come with videotapes, there is no way to say conclusively whether pearly gates were a part of his visionary experience or if, in telling his story later, he assumed they were there because he believed they were supposed to be there. So, once again, I point out the strong relationship between the ideology/beliefs of an experiencer and the way the content of that person’s NDE will be interpreted afterward, when in waking consciousness it becomes translated into a personal narrative.
In other words, something happens, and I suspect we do well not to get overly hung up on the details.
Nancy, not to deviate too far from your point of what we do or imagine in this life can have consequential effects on our afterlife, based on your studies is it possible that what we dream about having in the afterlife can dramatically bring about that which we want? An example: a bachelor/spinster never found their “soulmate” in this life but desperately wanted one and, in fact, their final thoughts before dying were of meeting this soulmate (in whatever form or countenance they imagined that person would have). Could this intense desire actually bring about an actual union in the afterlife? I’m sure you’re aware of Swedenborg’s writings. He strongly advocated that everyone who wanted a union with someone would be united with that person by God Himself and that if a person had an unhappy marriage in this life or was single, that God would match that person with their perfect soulmate. What are your thoughts on both these issues?
My immediate response is that there are a good many people who have had something quite different from what they wanted or profoundly expected; so I don’t think presupposition or preparation is necessarily conclusive. That said, my most honest answer is that I haven’t a clue how it works.
Jack, I think this can help in your search, is from St.Augustine “… God has made us for himself and our hearts are restless until they rest in Him…” it is as though with every action in our lives we try to find that omega point that seems to be in the DNA of our souls, as our deepest desire, far more important than our wishes or ego based desires. You can also find a similar approach in Swedenborg’s Works.
I find it a bit disturbing that you create your post after Dr. Rawlings passes away.That way, he cannot defend his work. I do not see any supportive data presented here. Where are your references and annotations? Please provide all when making your comments near each passage delivered as “fact”. Do you have a different agenda? Are you an atheist? Perhaps conducting your own “clinical death” may lead you to the truth? Any takers?
Donna, thank you for expressing your concern. Dr. Rawlings’ books are still in print and being read, even after his death, and people are still asking questions about them. In other words, his work is still part of an ongoing conversation. Like any author’s work, his stands on its own merits; he continues to have his admirers and does not need to defend it. Likewise, those who have reservations about his claims continue their part of the discussion. The most detailed professional critique of his work, as referenced in the blog post, was written by his fellow cardiologist Michael B. Sabom, MD, whose meticulously researched article in the Journal of Near-Death Studies remains the standard. You might find it helpful. I am not an atheist, but because I do not share Dr. Rawlings’ denominational certainties, it is fair to say I have a different agenda. Thanks again for commenting.
Thanks to everyone’s comment on the subject of NDEs.
Even if one out of all the NDE cases that Dr. Rawlings presented happened to be true experience and verifiable, it does tell us that indeed there is heaven and hell. The question then is if i should die now, where is my eternal destination? Is my present lifestyle worthy of making a home for me with the Savior, Jesus Christ in Heaven? or Am i heading to hell?
We can stop being petty and do self search on our individual lives rather than pointing fingers to justify ourselves. On the final day, judgement comes to individual not to a group. We will all stand before God’s judgement throne speechless.
Let us therefore reconcile our lives with the Savior now before we die and leave the corruptible pleasures of this world behind.
Thanks
If only one of Rawlings’ cases were true, it would raise the question of why that NDE, if interpreted as a glimpse of or a trip to the final abode of people with beliefs and/or a lifestyle not pleasing to God, was not in harmony with countless other alleged NDEs. That is, why God should fail to be consistent with his warnings, having it so that all sorts of people get a taste of heaven and all sorts get a taste of hell during an NDE instead of setting things up so that good Christian experiencers would find themselves in heaven while non-Christians and sinful believers in Christ would find themselves engulfed in flames or a menacing darkness as punishment for being of the wrong faith, being of no faith at all or not being as holy as they ought to have been.
Dr Maurice Rawlings did what every christian must do, bringing people to Christ ( Mattew 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-18; Luke24:47). Anyone who warns people about hell actually loves them and does wish to see them condemned. If you really love your soul, you should not rationalise about your sins, confess them to Jesus, repent and make Jesus the Lord of your life ( this means that you do His will in everyday life not yours) and your Saviour. The bible says ” that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved”. The story about Lazarus and the rich man is a real event narrated by the Master of the universe, it is not a parable as some people think. Jesus even mentions real life characters Lazarus and Abraham. He even describes the colour of clothes the rich man used to wore. The bible says I Phillipians 2:12 ……”work out your salvation with fear and trembling”. In John 6:28 Then they adked Him, ” What must we doto do the works God requires?” Jesus replied”This is the work of God, that you belive in the One He has sent. Good people let’s do like Noah, who when divinely warned moved with Godly fear, build the ark and saved his family. We have also been divinely warmed, let us not fear those who can only kill the body, but FEAR Him who is able to destroy both the the body and soul in hell. HELL is a real place and HEAVEN is also a real place. In this world you may live may be up to a hundred, but after you die your soul will spend eternity either in Heaven or Hell, depending on your relationship with Jesus. It makes sense to make sure on which piece of real estate you will be occupying after your earthly life. John 3:18 says”Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the onlly begotten Son of God.
But was embellishing NDE accounts to make them appear more pro-fundamentalist Christianity in hopes that they would frighten readers of them into the arms of Jesus the right thing to do? Does the end justify the means?
As for the story of the rich man and Lazarus: Why be adamant that it’s about real people when it sits among stories that just about everyone who’s read does agree are parables? Theories on how it should be interpreted abound, and one of them is that the Lazarus in it represents the Eliezar that we read about in Genesis – the idea behind it being that because Eliezar chose obedience to his master over personal gain by obtaining a bride for Isaac (thus working his way out of Abe’s inheritance), Jesus told a story about him using emblematic language as a way of telling the Pharisees that his attitude and behaviour (in that instance at least) was in contrast to theirs. (See Wikipedia for other theories if interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_man_and_Lazarus)
Moreover, some find a face-value reading of the story problematical because the failure of it to indicate that the religious beliefs of Lazarus or the rich man matter to God means it has nothing to say about our being saved by grace through faith only, and seems to suggest on the contrary that 1) one can get to heaven by being downtrodden, and 2) being unkindly is what puts one at risk of hellfire.
Thulani Makhaye wrote: “…after you die your soul will spend eternity either in Heaven or Hell, depending on your relationship with Jesus.”
In which case, did all people who died as grown-ups before the time of Jesus go to hell? If some of them didn’t, but everyone who breathes their last breath as a non-Christian adult in this day and age does because the rules have changed, how did God’s actions come to be restricted so severely by earthly religion and articles of faith?
Why would God endow people with attributes like intellect and reason if not for us to make use of them to the best of our ability? Furthermore, given that God’s intellect will be far greater than any of ours, shouldn’t he have full knowledge of the fact that how we behave, what we believe and what we hold to be right and wrong has a lot to do with such things as our culture, upbringing and psychological make-up, and therefore have more than just a modicum of understanding of what it’s like to be human and the difficulties we face?
John, to the best of our ability we are still very limited. Imagine how ignorant we are about the quality of air we are breathing right now! Better still what we will think ten minutes from now…There is a point where your intellect will never answer life questions! To accept this fact is humility – an attribute we are so devoid of…and God is fully aware of the challnging life we live in. Jesus came and lived among us and understands all these issues…however to conclude that our surroundings should always determine our behaviour is simplistic to say the least. We who know Him have been empowered to overcome this fatalistic attitude. You can also – only if you yield to Him to take your hand and lead you Himself. John F. as a human being, you are immensely limited! The worst thing is to hide behind such excuses to justify behavior only to find out too late that God was able to help you deal with your frailities as a human being and you rejected the offer…
@ Gilbert Ouma: Though thoughtlessly allowing ourselves to be a product of our culture or upbringing is indeed undesirable (a fairly extreme but perhaps not uncommon example of a person pouring out what’s been poured into them, and with very negative consequences, is someone frequently treating others with contempt because of intense anger resulting from an abusive childhood), it’s still unquestionably true, whether we’re happy about it or not, that most of us (all of us?) were hugely influenced by the environment we grew up in, and that a lot of us continue as adults to be shaped by our surroundings and the opinions of people we mix with. Does God take that into account? I don’t know, but would like to think that he does.
Oh Yeah John! God understands that fully well. He understands that our lives are influenced by our environments. In fact when Jesus lived on earth, his language, dress code, religious practices, relationships – name it, were influenced by the culture that pertained in Israel at that time. In a similar way, people who lived in his time were affected by all those influences. Truly, not all that we are influenced by is negative and ungodly – otherwise we wouldn’t be using technology for example. But what remains in our power is the choice to use technology in a godly way. Some use it for good purposes; others make a conscious choice to use it for evil purposes. John, you have the power to determine your choices but you do not have the power to determine the consequences of your choices! My dad was a very violent man, but I chose not to do the same to my children! Let me say it clear that the consequences of living an ungodly life are dire – especially when one dies without finding God’s forgiveness. This is what eternal punishment is about! Jesus said of God; “I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.” (Luke 12:5). So hell is real!
And let me add this quickly – this is the reason God’s word says that we ( you and I ) “do not have a high priest (Jesus) who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.” (Hebrews 4:15) He fully understands that we are in a world that affects us tremendously and sympathizes with us. God is however different for us. His ways are higher than our ways. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts – that is one thing that sets Him apart as God. He expects us to overcome all negative influences on our behavior. And knowing that we are limited, He offers Himself to help us! He is always available through Jesus Christ His Son. Jesus said – “without Me you can do nothing.” (John 15:5).
John, to accept the help of God digs down to your ego. It is an acceptance that you are inadequate. It is like handling over your life to someone else to help you run it! Yet to do so is priceless. Accepting God takes humility.
I have known people who have chosen to perpetually wallow in the belief that they cannot be helped – they have “gone too far.” Some believe that God hates them and cannot accept them. Some think God is not interested in them and worst of all some think God cannot change their situation – so they make a conscious choice to enjoy for the rest of their lives the never satisfying demands of their bodies, ego and self. Some of these attitudes are generated by belief in opinions they have heard from others about them. Some are peer stand points. Yet on the other hand, God is eagerly waiting for them to yield to Him and He would help them overcome. He can handle anything for anyone who has yielded to His immense power. So you are right – but there is a way out.
Well, at least you appear to have embraced evangelical Christianity with your eyes wide open. People who didn’t sometimes see red when something in the Bible is drawn to their attention that seems to be at odds with what they’ve been taught or like to think it teaches – as evidenced by (for example) a thoughtful comment on an Amazon review of Howard Storm’s first book (one of the one-star ones) that implies that being close to Jesus is possible without a Bible, and adds that the persecuting of Christians and confiscating of their Bibles in Russia during Stalin’s reign gave them “an abundance of opportunities to practice loving their enemies,” getting a silent thumbs down. (Maybe the downvoter of that comment found the idea of loving their enemies abhorrent?)
Re the words of Jesus’ recorded in Matthew 10:28 and Luke 12:4-5: I started a thread last year with a message in which I asked for people’s thoughts on what’s in these passages. Whether any of the responses I got holds water I’ll leave for others to decide:
https://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/matthew-1028-luke-124-5
Just to add that my previous post should have appeared under Gilbert Ouma’s, since I was replying to his. My bad.
I have just finished rereading “To Hell and Back.” It is one of the most engaging books I’ve come across on NDEs. It seems to me the question is not how many of his NDE accounts he got from other sources, and what percentage of them were hellish or not. It’s whether those hellish ones are true. And he is certainly not the only one who relates those type of accounts. Howard Storm is a very credible “witness,” and his account squares with others I’ve read. You can also read about some of the negative accounts in “The Other Side,” by Michael Brown, a very thorough examination of life-after-death accounts. Recently, there is Shawn Weed’s YouTube testimony, along with a slew of other YouTube testimonies. Weed is an ex-Marine and also very credible. Hell exists. It seems too many wish to evaporate it and create their own theology and their own interpretation of the Bible. Of course, God is loving and merciful, and everyone–that’s everyone–gets an invitation to heaven. But God loves our free will and he can’t make us go there. We have to choose.
Bob, distressing NDEs certainly demonstrate that something hellish is a real possibility. That’s a given. The question I have tried to address is whether that “something” is objectively real (an actual place, as described by a lake of fire or any of the details in the YouTube narratives) or subjectively real (a convincing experience that emerges from the profound deeps (which are immensely deep) of the human psyche–which is also part of God’s world). The experiences are as true as any other event; people are not making these up as fictional stories. How we explain them makes a difference. (And for those of us who believe in a God, the psyche explanation is no less reverent or theologically sturdy.)
A simple “we choose” is logical but not persuasive when we consider the complexities of these experiences–why saints have hellish experiences, why ordinary church-going people who have done their best to follow The Way may have one, why a violent criminal may encounter only radiance. The logic of choice doesn’t hold up.
Bob, you are spot on. The Bible is awash with references that affirm your statements.
Gilbert, I recognize the strength of your belief that a literal reading of the Bible accurately shapes and defines reality, and that a narrow range of interpretation is considered acceptable. I am also sensitive to the fact that from your perspective, any other interpretation of reality will be seen as incomprehensible and/or sinful.
This blog, however, exists primarily to address the concerns of people, Christian and non-Christian, who either do not accept that literal reading and interpretation or who have been so psychologically damaged by it that they are searching for a different responsible way in which to understand what distressing NDEs may be about.
The traditional view, which you have expressed with conviction and sincerity, is widely available online and in conservative Christian literature. It is represented in the work of Maurice Rawlings, whose books began this blog thread. Because that perspective is so prevalent, I believe it does not need repeating in these comments, especially as it creates havoc for other readers. For these reasons, I am not posting your recent long comment of biblical references. You might take a look at my article, “Untangling Hellish Visions,” which is listed on this website under Articles.
Nan. Truth is priceless but it at times comes to us dressed in overralls…
Wonderfully put, Gilbert! Thank you.
I’ve listened to Bill Wiese’s account of his Hellish experience. To me, it was just too contrived or tainted with someone trying to push the “word of God” into the public.
I feel that Bill Wiese is also unreliable. Not because his experience was way different than mine, but because of the illogic in it.
What about you guys? You feel that way about Wiese too?
When it comes to these kinds of stories, it seems to me that there might be somewhat of a tendency for each one to be a bit more dramatic and outrageous than the one that preceded it. Take for example the story of Angelica Zambrano’s alleged trip to hell, which goes one better than that of Bill Wiese’s (60 times better actually!) by telling of her having spent not just 23 minutes in hell, but 23 hours, and witnessing demons there moonwalking in the style of Michael Jackson among other things – things that would probably make quite comical reading for me were it not for my awareness of the fact that scores of people take tales like hers seriously. (Zambrano claims to have gone to hell in 2009; Wiese in 1998.)
Careful readers of modern reports of folks roasting in hell may also find, as I have, that they are not always totally consistent with one another. For example, in the story detailing a tour of hell that seven Colombian youths say they had in 1995, it’s stated that “there is no love, mercy or forgiveness in hell” – which appears to conflict with not only some of Zambrano’s presentation of hell, but a literal reading of Luke 16:27-30, too – for this passage and Zambrano have hell as a realm where some of the condemned *do* have compassion, and are eager for others not to end up where they themselves have ended up. (Though there is nothing about the girl in the article describing Zambrano’s supposed visit to hell linked below, she has nevertheless mentioned seeing in hell a girl who’d died at 15 years old and who implored her to warn others about its horrors.)
What’s more, Zambrano’s story, unlike most (all?) similar ones that came before it, depicts God as an eternal torturer of young children as well as of adolescents and adults.
http://www.divinerevelations.info/documents/prepare_to_meet_your_god (Angelica Zambrano)
http://www.divinerevelations.info/documents/7_jovenes/english_7_jovenes_hell.htm (account of the Colombian youths’ being shown around hell by Jesus – the paragraph containing the assertion that “there is no love, mercy or forgiveness in hell” is roughly a quarter of the way down the page)
Well said, Jon. Thank you.
I’ve commented a few times in the past and, in the meantime, have been doing quite a bit of study on the Bible’s origins and NDE’s. What I’ve learned is not to trust what the Bible says Jesus purportedly said about hell and the ‘narrow is the gate leading to destruction’ stuff. All these negative statements attributed to Jesus were likely interpolations into the scriptures a few centuries later by church fathers to scare pagans into accepting Christianity. The Greeks, centuries earlier, had used threats of a fiery Hades and eternal suffering to keep their citizens in line and it worked quite successfully. The early church fathers were merely employing this technique to achieve the same results.
Rawlings’ finding do not in any way agree with the thousands of NDE’s I have listened to on YouTube or read about. The people who experience any sort of “hellish” NDE are almost exclusively Christianized and were fed a diet of terrifying scriptures of how someone would go to hell and experience excruciating pain and eternal suffering for not accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior. These reports had all the earmarks of a person having been brainwashed and indoctrinated into believing that something hellish would occur as a direct result of not accepting Jesus. It really boils down to one word: FEAR. People not subjected to any of this fearful indoctrination (never read the Bible or had any preconceived notions of hell and suffering) never once reported such absurd experiences of hell, the devil, or burning in a lake of fire.
The bottom line seems to be that if you have an NDE you will experience exactly what you expect to receive in the after-life. If you’re terrified of going to hell, likely you will “go to hell”; if you try to be a good person in this life and you’re content and confident you’ve done a good job, then you’ll go to heaven. Simple as that.
Hi Nan.
Ive read the article and the comments. All i have to say is please play it safe. Rather be right that all after death are going to heaven to bask in NDE,rs favorite white light of pure Love and bliss or be wrong and find out that you were so thoroughly and utterly duped that its to late to change course.
I know that you’ve heard this argument a thousand times before. But for me the smart choice is to say to oneself that i choose Jesus just in case im wrong . If im write than we all go to heaven regardless of our actions but if im wrong then can i manage hell. Can i rationalize and intellectualize my way out of Hell. Can i Love my way out of hell. Can the white light of Love take me out of hell. Can Love itself take me out . What can ?
The few hell NDE,s ive read are truly chilling. Some describe themselves there as fear it self . They become fear and distress itself . I’m not talking about the hell fire or darkness ones but also the few bad suicide NDE,s.
My advice to you Nan is to not intellectualize this but spiritualise it. Go to your nearest church and tell them that you thought you new Jesus but would like them to introduce Jesus to you spiritually. Let your self go to Jesus. Not to the white light of love but to Jesus Christ of the Bible .
Please look at all NDE,S including yours and even the Jesus Christ ones in a new way. If the underlying message is not bring all to Jesus so that they are saved than discard them , including your one and the Jesus Christ ones.
Nan , you have heard this before a thousand times , but what are you going to do when you die and dont come back to tell the tale. If you were right , than you were right. But if you were wrong , you cant even imagine what awaits you. Please think about this seriously and personally.
Please take a break for a while from the LOVE LOVE WHITE LIGHT LOVE obsession that constitutes the majority of NDE,s. The white light love obsession must not blind people from the opposite of that white light love. The reality of life is that there is good and evil in this world whether you like it or not . So why would there not be on the other side. We are not in control even though we want the fuzzy white light love to go on perpetually. But the reality is that ,once you die , you enter a roller coaster that takes you were ever it wants and wherever you deserve to go by the one that created this whole thing in the first place.. You are not in control, just as much as you dont choose to have an NDE, in the first place . So please Nan , choose Jesus Christ and the bible as your one and absolute guide.
When Jesus talks of it being difficult for the rich to enter heaven , his not only talking about the rich in money but also in knowledge ( Phd,s etc ) They will all come to naught were it truly matters. Please make the write decision for yourself and no one else. This is not a matter of life and death but a matter of life and after life.
Lebo, thank you for this thoughtful, caring comment. I deeply appreciate your interest and concern.
The one major thing you’re missing is that I am already, and have always been, an active, tithing, observant, enthusiastic Christian. I think I was maybe three or four when we learned the song “Jesus Wants Me for a Sunbeam” in Sunday School, and I’ve been working on that my whole life. One reason my own distressing NDE was so awful was that I did not for a moment believe it was anything I deserved for my religious beliefs; and furthermore, I was absolutely not willing to accept any explanation I could find that was biblical.
What I have found in fifty-some years of worship and Bible study and religious education tells me there is more than one authentic way to interpret the messages of scripture. Every Sunday sees me in church, probably singing many of the same hymns you do. I teach Bible. But I am solidly with Rob Bell (and so many other deeply Christian pastors and laypeople) who love and follow Jesus but do not accept the typical evangelical notion of hell. I’ve had a distressing NDE; I know there’s more than the Light; yes, I agree with you that there has been far too much ill-informed romanticism about the Light, and far too little attention to the horrifying challenges of distressing experiences. But I also believe there’s been waaay too much really, really narrow, misplaced, and downright bad interpretation of the Bible. I do not for one instant believe that the traditional hell is an accurate understanding of it.
I do recognize that my point of view is totally unacceptable to many traditionalist evangelical and fundamentalist Christians, who find it even satanic. And I think that is too bad. Quite honestly, what bothers me about it is my certainty that so much of the fear is misplaced, and that it is a tragic mistake to think such vindictiveness and ugliness is intended by God and Jesus.
In short, I choose Jesus not because I’m afraid to be wrong but because this is the path I believe God has shown me, loving and affirming God and creation, studying scripture from many points of view, trying to model Jesus in my life.
Again, Lebo, thank you for your kindness in writing, and God bless.
Hi Nan. Thank you very much for your considered, well thought out and spiritual response. I must admit Nan , the comment and post i made first was before i fully read your entire blog , so that i can understand your complete view point , experiences and position. I now understand that you come from a place that many of us come from and that is searching for truth amidst the existence of many viewpoints and theories.
But i must tell you Nan of my experience and what lead me to this most interesting phenomena called NDE,s.
Im 40 now. But at the age of 16 i was studying for exams in my bedroom. I was not religious at all . I felt myself sinking into a mild depression for some reason and so something just told me to confront God about his existence. There was a brown gentle butterfly like , insect perched on the top corner of the ceiling . I then said to God , God and Jesus Christ , lets settle this once and for all, if you exist please make that butterfly , fly and land on the second finger next to my pinkie finger on my hand . If you do this then i will know that this whole thing of your existence is true and i will also follow . As God is my witness the insect immediately flew from the ceiling and landed straight on the finger. I than gently opened the window and blew it out.
I then went down on my knees and praised and prayed to God , swearing that i will follow him because God and Jesus are real and true. Now i have made many mistakes in my life up to now but i without a doubt no that God and Jesus are real and true. I also know that the bible especially the KJV is true I try to compare every thing said by everyone including priests etc to what the bible says not what they say.
Early Last year for some reason i started intensely researching the occult. I seam to have accidentally opened a door i shouldn’t have , because i started having intense and horrific nightmares to the extent that on one occasion i dreamed that i was wrestling with this young kid that was attacking me in some water and as he was kicking and scratching me i drowned him , I then woke up in cold sweat and went to the bathroom . Low and behold , there were four animal like scratches on my chest. Exactly a week later as i was lying on my stomach in bed at night i was hit with a hammer like blow on my back that nearly took me to hospital , were it not for my prayers. Now this settles it for me the Devil and Demons exist.
Now if i read the bible which says that because the Devil knows he is going to hell for eternal punishment , he is going to try his damnest best to take as many of us with him there because of free will that God has given all of us to make. The choice being to implicitly follow him through Jesus Christ as prescribed by the bible or to follow our own wishes as prescribed by our hearts and mind.
What lead me to NDE,s is that my sister passed away last year December. She was a Christian and as such i then intensely researched about the afterlife etc which lead me to the NDE phenomena . I then read a lot about this strange and blissful white light phenomena. I tried to compare it to the standard of the bible. I also came across peoples hellish experiences. Without a doubt i concluded that NDE, s are very real but are they deceptions or not.
Because the bible does say that the Devil also can turn himself into a benevolent angel of light to deceive the masses so that they miss the mark .
The subject is very complex and deep but i believe that at least those NDE,s be they hellish or not that turn you to Jesus Christ are beneficial for your future. But they themselves need to be scrutinized because you can end up believing in some new age Jesus Christ figure accompanied by new age philosophies .
When all is said and done the importance of not being deceived cannot be stressed enough. My experiences and yours through your negative NDE, tell us that something beyond our reality exists . I would rather play it safe and try follow the bible as best i can so that i make it to a place that the bible says i will continue living happily . What is clear is that we as human beings cannot die and are immortal so to speak
Nan i know you have your own views about ,punishment and suffering where God is concerned etc but lets all leave that to him as far as divine justice and his infinite knowledge are concerned, especially with matters concerning the now and hereafter.
But the bottom line is that we will all know the truth soon enough in so called death where we wont have the luxury of coming back from our NDE,s.
I say we play it smart and safe by following Jesus Christ and the bible to the letter if possible.
But thank you very much for your extensive research in this subject matter and for your kind and generous heart that everyone can undoubtedly see in you viewpoints and posts.
Remain blessed .
Thanks
Lebo, another thanks from me. I could not agree with you more about leaving divine justice where it belongs and not trying to take it upon ourselves! As you say, dabbling in the occult–especially with the idea of demonic forces–is not a good idea. You probably can guess, I am not convinced they are external to us, as our deep, deep recesses of consciousness are full of images and “somethings” which can be extremely dangerous. But internal or external, they are best not neighborhoods to explore unguided. And as for whether the light, the Light, the angel of light, etc. is beneficient or satanic, the best rule seems to be “by their fruits you will know them.” Thanks again.
I used to be recommended this web site by my cousin. I’m now not sure whether or not this put up is written through him as no one else understand such unique approximately
my trouble. You’re wonderful! Thank you!
I dont understand ur post at all.
Looks like that wonderful “auto-correct” feature of our phones, tablets & computers might have mis-interpolated a few words??
ANYWAY ID LIKE TO READ WHAT U MEANT TO SAY… could u please re-post?
We have had a major epidemic of hacking recently. I think what you saw which was so confusing was an example of hacked text, which is often just gobbledigook. Sorry about that. Hopefully, the problem has been resolved.
Dr. Rawlings was my uncle’s cardiologist over a period of many years. My uncle, at times, experienced NDEs. He spent his life ill, but with ever deepening spiritual clarity. When he was on his death bed, people lined up to visit him in a steady stream, and he laid hands on them and prophecied over them. His wife felt a loss as so many people took his time in his last 3 days of life on earth, but she understood that even though he was her devoted husband, he also was a vessel God used to pour out wisdom and healing for others.
Maurice Rawlings continued to accept invitations to make guest appearances on television talk shows well past the time he was coherent enough to converse coherently. That many may have seen him only at his worst without having seen him as an intelligent communicator is a pity.
Robyn, thank you so much for this wonderfully evocative comment! At his best, Rawlings was indeed an intelligent communicator, as well as a warm and compassionate individual. I have regretted that his theological position on judgment and hell has made so many readers believe he was as rigid as the doctrines. And as you tactfully observe, it is a gift for any of us to know when it is time to sit down and stop talking! Thanks again.
All you jave to do is read Christ’s teachings, and you will know Dr. Rawlings was absolutely correct. HELL is real!!
Jesus was clear that there would be consequences for Israel’s misdeeds. The perspective of hell as eternal physical torment of individuals without recourse is not biblical; that came later.
It seems this article intends to discredit Dr. Rawlings findings BY FALSE PREMISES.
(1) Michael Sabom fails to mention that Dr. Rawlings WAS **HIMSELF** AN **ATHIEST** until several of his patient’s DEATH EXPERIENCES caused him to research the afterlife and what people saw & experienced, and then to record & revisit the situations with them…
…so he’s certainly not superimposing his personal Christian beliefs on their experiences, CUZ HE HAD NONE!!
But what he DID DO, was to take the patient’s experiences and hold them up against a full biblical rendering.
(2) Dr. Rawling’s events were not NDE’S, they were FULL CLINICAL **DEATHS** (a step beyond an “NDE”). NDE’S have some characteristics that differ significantly from those who have “travelled” a bit farther down the path of eternity.
Also, I have personally read about half of all the books on the market about “after life” experiences, NDE or Clinical Death, secular or religious. I have **NOT** noticed ANY plagiarism of the experiences from other sources. Of course, anyone with a thinking mind will realize the same person who had the death experience could be interviewed by more than one researcher… hey, that’s the way the world turna!!
===> In closing, IT’S CLEAR TO ME MICHAEL SABOM HAS NEVER READ THE **BOOK** BY DR. RAWLINGS, “BEYOND DEATHS DOOR”. To critique a MOVIE is one thing, but the more detailed content contained in his BOOKS is another.
Thank you for sharing your views about this post. I’d like to offer a couple of clarifications.
1. Yes, Dr. Rawlings declared that he had no religious affiliation when he first heard a patient’s NDE. However, he was also very clear that it was hearing more stories which led him to become a born-again Christian, and it was from that belief position that he wrote his books.
2. The term “near-death experience” came about because it described the situation of the patients who provided the first accounts reported by Dr. Raymond Moody. Many of them, too, had an episode of clinical death, meaning simply that a number of biological processes stopped temporarily. During that time, the NDEs, which do not involve stopping biological processes, apparently occurred.
But by definition, people who go fully into death do not come back; because these people did come back to tell their stories, they are considered to have been “near death,” even if they had a clinical death episode. That’s the thing, you see–it was an *episode* rather than permanent death. Therefore, “near-death experience.” In other words, an NDE is not simply a lesser version of a clinical death episode; they are different things entirely.
3. Dr. Rawlings was a devout Christian man whose interest in writing his books was primarily in saving souls. He told me that himself. While his books have often spoken powerfully to their intended audience, they do not meet the research standards which are the primary interest of Dr. Sabom, who is also a devout evangelical Christian. He was writing for a different audience with a different purpose. I can assure you, Dr. Sabom has read all of Dr. Rawlings books, and more than once.
Thanks again for writing.
THIS IS WHAT I MEAN BY UR FALSE PREMISES:
(1) Taking issue with ur false premise-forming statement, and I quote:
“But by definition, people who go fully into death do not come back..”,
THAT STATEMENT IS INCORRECT.
Any medical Doctor (& even Maurice Rawlings) make it clear that CLINICAL DEATH IS REVERSIBLE by modern resuscitation techniques… and as I know from personal experience, subcutaneous injections of specific drug cocktails RIGHT INTO THE HEART MUSCLE to kick-start the heartbeat.
(2) Your second false premise (and for some reason u keep recycling this invalid conclusion too), that because Maurice Rawlings BECAME a Christian (and THEN had a passion for the souls of others), that his research is therefore “suspect”.
— FACTS STAND ON THEIR OWN —
— THE EXPERIENCES OR TESTIMONIES OF MAURICE RAWLING’S PATIENTS ARE NOT INVALIDATED BY HIS OWN PERSONAL CONVERSION. These are 2 entirely different considerations.
It really duznt matter how u attempt to invalidate & reassemble truth to suit **YOU**, IN YOUR HEART U KNOW THE TRUTH.
The eternalness of Hell and its horrors are mentioned many times in the Bible including by Jesus himself. Now we have NDEs that continue to prove this fact. Why not accept Christ as your savior, follow his teaching, and avoid this horridness!! No amount of twisting the truth will change the word of God!!
No words in the Bible mean exactly what ‘hell’ or ‘eternal’ mean in English today. Many English translations of the Bible use these words to represent something which had quite different meanings in their original language. For instance, the Hebrew ‘Sheol’ was not hell as we think of it, but was simply a place (assumedly underground) where the dead were warehoused; it was not punishment. ‘Hades’ was pretty much the Greek equivalent throughout most of biblical history. Gehenna comes closer, but was a valley where terrible things like child sacrifice had occurred; it may also have been the site of a burning dump, so as a word, ‘Gehenna’ came to represent anything which was considered an abomination, a horror; Jesus used it eleven times to warn of the religious and political catastrophe which was coming to Israel, like a spiritual Gehenna. Later Christian interpretation expanded Jesus’ use of the word to mean a hell which was not actually part of his theology. Yes, Jesus gave warnings, but the concept we think of as hell (the physical body in merciless torment throughout eternity with no recourse) did not arrive until centuries after Jesus’ death. And yes, I am aware that there is a strain within Christianity which teaches that notion of hell as true. However, it is not the only Christian view.
Did you read the blog or ever study the Bible? Or let alone do nde research? Or do you just follow pop Christianity?
I’m sure Rawlings meant well, but is it wise to trust that his books consistently present NDEs precisely as they were related when even Michael Sabom doesn’t think that they do?
That Sabom doesn’t consider Rawlings’ books to be reliable sources of information on NDEs is of particular significance to me largely because with him being an evangelical Christian himself, his beliefs about what happens to people and why following death are likely to be very similar to what Rawlings’ were.
Thanks for your input, Jon. Michael Sabom has a reputation as a careful and meticulous researcher. He always kept a watchful distance between his research data and his religious convictions; you could read his first book, Recollections of Death, without knowing anything about his religious beliefs. In other words, his consistent objective is to report facts about NDEs and to maintain a thoughtful approach to what the data may mean. By contrast, Rawlings’s research methods were obviously sloppy, the equivalent of tossing his clothes into a pile at the foot of the bed and grabbing whatever was on top. His objective was not to follow the highest standard of research methods but was to use NDEs as evidence for his type of Christian beliefs. Sabom’s objections have nothing to do with their shared faith beliefs but are all about sloppy research and the misrepresentation of facts in biased reporting.
I always knew something was off about the accounts of Rawlings. But it seems this post has angered many fundies, and I say Kudos.
Thanks, Rod. It’s been the most-looked-at post!
Thanks for sharing this! It was a fascinating trip down memory lane 🙂 where did everyone go since 2012?
Unfortunately, later analysis has demonstrated conclusively that much of Dr. Rawlings’ published data is unreliable. See my blog post and the study of his work by fellow cardiologist (and Christian) Michael B. Sabom.
What will you say O man when you stand before God to give account of your life?
How will you answer divine questions with intellect when the latter is so feeble in the presence of Him who gave it to you ?
Have a good day