Tomas and some others asked me, “Are you afraid of death?”
The opening of my response (last week’s post, the one below this one): “Some yes.”
This week: “Most no”
What does that mean, “Most no?”
Bear with me, please, because I’m thinking on paper here. I think what “Most no” means is that I’m probably not afraid of what most people are afraid of when we think of death. At least in Western societies, most people are afraid of hell, or at least of punishment. That is what at least 1,700 years of theology have led to.
The conventional hell
Now, I am not about to detail that whole situation in a single blog post. I have already posted about it and written a long article, “Untangling Hellish Visions,” to which I refer you. It is under Articles at this website. I’m also working on a shorter version that you can more easily tuck into your mind and carry with you. Look for it a few days after this is posted.
The bottom line is that hell has not always looked the way it does in the common imagination today; Augustine/Dante’s Inferno hell is not a fact of the universe. Further, for anyone thinking there is some religious imperative to that hell, there is nothing biblical about it, though it came to be the predominant Christian view, the one still giving people horrors and creeps. (There have always been minority views, but the Augustine/ Dante hell won the politico-religious/special effects contest.)
What is the character of your God?
So let me just say that what this means is that there is no evidence, other than legend and some overwrought theology, of a place in the universe where people who have behaved wickedly or who believe the wrong things about God will be thrown into eternal, unending, forever physical torment without recourse. Nada.
Returning readers will know I say this as a practicing, in-church-every-Sunday Christian—though not a traditional one. But this hell business matters even for non-religious people because Western culture has developed over two thousand years around the Judeo-Christian tradition and has embedded those images and concepts into its psyche. Our cultural world is absolutely saturated, from sermons to video games, with the notion of looming hell put forward by Augustine (4th century) and Dante’s Inferno (14th century). Other than atheists thinking heaven/hell must indicate psychosis, and skeptics certain of oblivion, we have no broadly accepted alternative to what happens after death than heaven/hell. So what are we to think?
If not hell, what?
If there is no hell, what are distressing NDEs? What is their point, if not a warning? Here is where my thinking may seem to take some odd turns, but stick with me. I pretty much know where I’m going, though not how to get there in a straight line.
It was New Testament scholar and former Catholic priest John Dominic Crossan who asked what has been for me a central question: “What is the character of your god?”
My god. Your god. Religious or secular, you have one, even if it’s golf or American Idol or Fox News or your Constitutional right to own an automatic weapon. Or Doctors Without Borders, or hospice, or teaching third grade. You have one. Maybe it’s even God. The point is, whatever I believe about the character of whatever I take as my god shapes my life. Yours shapes you, too.
Last week, I had lunch in rural North Carolina, down in fundamentalist country, in a little backroad country grill with a great cook, in a seedy, half-stocked convenience store with a big-screen TV blaring a sci-fi horror flick on AMC. It was all conflict—screaming, grunting, the crashings of guys bursting down a door, each arm occupied by a blasting automatic weapon. Lots of automatic weapons, lots of blasting. Exploding. Screaming. It was like that the whole time. I couldn’t help wondering what it must do to that cook, to be submerged in that all day, every day. Even if she pays no attention, it’s in the air. What is the character of that god? Little kids go in there. What do they think about how the world works?
Right now, the god of the entire world looks very much like fear, even terror. And the character of fear is that it’s suspicious. Everyone is feeling threatened by something, or by everything; it’s become a madness. Gun shops thrive. Conspiracies and threats everywhere, spying and secrets. Differences are scary, children are being tried as adult criminals, the US has more and more people in prison per square inch of the population, young girls are kidnapped by the hundreds because they are being taught to think things their captors don’t want to know about. We want someone to come in and kick butt. (A yearning for Messiah is nothing new.)
We see the fear all around, the hyper-vigilant watch of suspicion that Someone is coming to take our choices, our property, our minds, our children, our rightness, our rights, even including our right to be armed against any person who comes to our door, anyone who crosses us or looks at us funny. The Inferno version of hell tells us that our justice is God’s justice, tells us we’re okay as long as we think the same way, as long as we’re inside the right lines. The character of this god is that he’d fit right into that diner movie, because he is just itching to blast all the bad guys, the unbelievers and misfits, into a hideous hell that lasts forever—keepin’ the rest of us safe, baby.
This is god in violation of the Geneva Conventions and Jesus’ teachings, yet countless people uphold this interpretation.
But…
The thing is, for all my objection to and disbelief in the Augustine/Dante hell and its depiction of the character of God, I don’t think rejecting it gets us off scot-free. I am quite certain (though without proof) that with or without physical lakes of fire and a pitiless deity, there are consequences to our choices.
One of my favorite people is Bernie Siegel, MD, the cancer surgeon and best-selling author of Love, Medicine, and Miracles. We were the speakers at a weekend workshop once. He was the rock star, and I was the opener; but after hearing my first talk, he began his by saying, “Nancy and I give the same speech; we just use different words.” (I’m sure it’s a stock line, but it was a great boost. Gotta love that!)
So of course he speaks my language. In one of his online articles, Bernie makes a point much like Crossan’s, just using different words. He says to God,
“Thanks, now I see I am to imitate God and use You for a role model…Oh, I’m to act like a Satellite dish, remote control and TV screen. I get it. I am to choose the channel I tune into and use my mind like a remote to select the proper channel, which is broadcasting your message, and use my body to demonstrate it like a TV screen reveals the program.”
What is the character of the channel, of the program we choose to shape us? Does it make a difference in what happens at the end of our earth stay? I have no more information than you, but it seems to me it should make some difference. It’s a matter of the culture we inhabit, and where that can take us.
Consequences
Another key quote for me is Einstein’s observation to the effect that the most important question humanity can ask is, “Is the universe friendly?”
Ah. We would like to know.
There is reason to believe so. We have oxygen. And water. The Intelligent Design folks have a whole lot of cosmological data showing that Earth is perfectly designed for such as we. Foodstuffs grow, and blood clots.
But then there are tornadoes, volcanoes, earthquakes, viruses and bacteria, spiders with toxic bites, and some savagely cruel insects, and cancer and ALS. And babies born with no brains, or with painful fatal conditions. (Wouldn’t painful or fatal be enough?) And, of course, there are distressing NDEs. Friendly?
The wishfully-thought God who is all love and no discipline or shadow has nothing to say to this.
In my thinking, the universe is perhaps dispassionate rather than friendly. God, too, because Things Happen. They just do, and we can rail against that or accept it. But then there’s this: that although there are reasons to disbelieve the medieval torture of hell, and although there are deeply distressing and sometimes even horrifying near-death experiences, the universe—or God—is friendly enough that it gave us Carl Jung.
According to Carl Gustav Jung, hell represents, among every culture, the disturbing aspect of the collective unconscious.
To be continued…
By now you may see the pattern that will answer the question.
There are some aspects of death, mostly instinctual, that continue to bother me.
However, I am not afraid of the conventional, medieval hell because I join with a good many theologians in dismissing it entirely as unworthy of the God in whom I believe.
My thinking has been and continues to be shaped by the character not only of that God, but by the people I meet and read, of whom I have just mentioned four. Jung is saved for the next post.
There are other influences and experiences affecting my thoughts about death, which we will get to next time, in what I expect will be the conclusion of this thread.
I was raised in the Bible Belt and yes, it was similar (though not exactly) to some of the pop culture myths about it. 😉 I lost my dogma and I “lean” toward Reincarnation these days. It makes more sense than bodies knitting back together and walking out of graves and also it’s more in line with hope and existence than oblivion. But, I don’t know. I appreciate articles and blogs like this. I still hold on to my faith but I also understand that some of the religion that I held so dear in my youth doesn’t really hold up well to scrutiny. Anyway, I look forward to the next entry.
Steve Snead
I haven’t been around for a long time…..but here goes. The problem to me is that mankind thinks that God is specific to us when it’s not. It’s an all pervading energy that powers all creation not just us.
All life forms and matter emerge from within it. It’s the life force we feel within us, and exists in everything else.
We don’t die. Our bodies (containers) cease to function for what ever reason, and our spirits leave and rejoin the universal energy. Call it God if you will, what’s in a name.
To me historical concepts of what God is are fabricated by conjecture, especially by those who want to control and intimidate other people. It’s suspicious to me that in feudal times the Catholic church had Jesus Christ “our Lord, and the guy who controlled all the Surfs who tilled his land was also called the Lord. They had all the money too.
If you truly love yourself, you’re loving the God within you. This is what enables you to sense “God” within others and love them too. Sometimes due to their lack of awareness of this, it’s not that easy to do, but that’s why we’re all going to school down here.
If you’ve just have to have a concept of Hell, here’s mine. Hell is a lake of filth with every one standing on their tippy toes with their faces above the surface. Every half hour the Devil comes through in a speed boat. All you hear all day and night is “Don’t make waves!…Don’t make waves!”
“…we have no broadly accepted alternative to what happens after death than heaven/hell. So what are we to think?
– Nancy
Therein lies the rub. With no heaven versus hell to wrestle with, where do we go from here? For me, underlying the themed question in this thread, “Are you afraid of death?” is a little voice saying “Oh Great NDE Researcher and Experiencer, please say no! And tell us why!”
Of course I know better than that. As I’ve said in the past, if you had The Answer, we’d be building shrines to The Holy Nancy Evans-Bush by now. Guess it’s back to winging it on my own again. *sniff*
🙂
But this is a great thread. Between your writing, Elaine Pagels, the Patheos website (thanks for the telling us about it), religioustolerance.org and various other literary and web-based sources, I have come a long way in resolving the psychological/spiritual damage done during a childhood spent indoctrinated in a “sinners in the hands of an angry god” Christology.
The only question debated about the afterlife at the time was whether Negros (the polite word of the era) and white people went to the same Heaven or a separate but equal one. Seriously. Hell was guaranteed, Heaven not so much. And my church was fairly liberal for a Southern Baptist church in it’s day. It still is. http://www.dhbc.org/
Let there be no doubt about it, the heaven vs. hell doctrine embedded in Western culture has done unspeakable damage to a loving and forgiving faith, and millions of lives. It’s like a form of the worst psychological (and often physical) child abuse passed on from one generation to the next. It comes with a built in safeguard too. If a believer encounters any other doctrine that appears to give them light and hope, it’s the devil in disguise. There’s a Bible verse for it. (And you’re not going to question the God’s Word, are you?)
For people not exposed to it, it’s hard to describe the painful, almost impossible psychological fortitude it takes to break free from the bonds of a fearful god. It’s literally like leaving the light of your family for the dark, because deep down inside you start to sense that in reality, your light is darkness and the only way to find real light is to venture out into an unknown darkness. You just keep reminding yourself that everything’ll be okay, once you find the light switch. Then you discover there’s a squillion light switches, so your next move is to find the ones made for you. A lot of work, but then, that’s the point.
It’s a scary, exciting and rewarding journey, which is good, ’cause there’s no turning back. You can’t stuff a butterfly back into the pupa. 🙂
Part of my outside-the-blog life is leading two groups that are going through the DVD series “Living the Questions.” It’s a brilliant series, 20 minutes of comments each week from some of the most thoughtful Progressive thinkers–Borg, Crossan, Brueggemann, Fox, Levine etc.–around a theme such as faith as a journey (rather than a destination), the historical/spiritual Jesus, thinking theologically. Last month, one of the groups had a visitor, a man who is almost desperately trying to get away from his hard-core wrathful God way of thinking. He sat next to me, and during the video I could feel him shaking. As it ended, he dove under the table and yelled, “God’s going to get us for this!” The table-diving was part joking, but his fear about questioning was absolutely real.
Thanks, rd.
By the way, there’s a home edition of Living the Questions (LtQ) available for $60.
Yet I do know of someone who “turned back” (can’t be sure that he had in fact been a fundamentalist in his younger days though, but certainly he was already very familiar with what fundamentalist Christianity taught and the problems that it had and caused), and that is a guy who wrote an article telling of his conversion to fire-and-brimstone Christianity that sections of are quoted and pulled to pieces by others in this thread: http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?1601-Is-Universalism-Dangerous (Prior to his embracing of fear-based religion and the aggressive condemning of others to hell on it that would follow, his website was a pleasant-in-tone one exploring spiritual concepts and things related, including NDEs – although no religious spin was put on any of them by him back then, needless to say.) The aforementioned article has since been deleted from his site (maybe because he was getting tired of people pointing out flaws in it?) and he’s not sending the judgment of God upon others there so much these days, but some of what’s there does still make it apparent that fundamentalist Christianity is something with which he continues to identify.
I feel like saying “What Rabbitdawg said.” 😉 It’s well put for those of us who were brought up “in the church.” I’m also reading a book right now “Why I’m an Atheist who believe in God.” By Frank Schaffer (pardon my spelling) It’s good and kind of scary at the same time to see others who were brought up in a similar worldview to me having the fortitude to question. Yet, not giving in to the cynical oblivion view of atheism.
By the way, there’s a home edition of Living the Questions (LtQ) available for $60.
– Nancy
Thanks. It’s not on Amazon right now, but I found the website. I’ll check it out.
While I’m here, I want to say that my experience with my childhood church was mostly a positive, even life saving phase. Several of the adult men served as much-needed Father figures for me, and I believe they did it from the genuinely spiritual side of their being. Looking back, they were the ones who didn’t get very involved in theological disputes.
I have many good reasons to believe God ‘called’ me there. Most of them would sound mundane to describe, although there was one event that was downright miraculous. But that’s a long, very personal story (as those things usually are). Bottom line, it was God in hearts and actions of individuals that saved me at the time, not some fearful doctrine.
Like other commenters I was also involved in a fundamentalist Christian tradition for many years. Being in the UK maybe the experience differs somewhat from the “southern baptist” type of church. However, never quite able to sign up to everything there I gradually took courage and left. It was incredibly hard to leave and took me two years to finally extricate myself. One of the things that was a stumbling block for me was the doctrine of hell and damnation for all unbelievers. Unable to become fully apostate I wound up in the good old Anglican Church (where I am happy) equivalent I think to your episcopal Church in the US.
Weirdly however I now find myself praying with fervour “deliver us from evil” as I’m now wondering whether there are in fact things to fear in this life and the next. We’re told (by nder’s) that all is forgiven, even that which we would regard as beyond the pale. And yet, and yet.. I wonder. Maybe we do need a saviour.
Another good question. It just went into my source file for a future post. Thanks.
P.M.H. Atwater says on pages 183-184 of her book Beyond the Light that being a “captive” (not a word I’ve seen her use in this context, but I’ll use it anyway to distinguish those who perceive themselves to be imprisoned in a hellish spiritual realm from those who visit one and realize that they’re only an observer) in some kind of hell is “not a ‘punishment for our sins’ but a confrontation with any distortion of our sense of values and priorities.” Not that I look upon her as the final authority when it comes to NDEs or spiritual matters in general, but these particular words of hers do make a fair bit of sense to me.
Unlike you and others here, I’ve had no involvement with a fundamentalist church, and so cannot speak of what it’s like to be a part of one from personal experience. Nevertheless, I do have a friend who used to go to what must be one of the most fundamentalist churches in the UK (which, given what I’m about to write about some of its members, I won’t mention by name; however, you might guess the church I mean if I say it’s in London) and whose attitude was very peculiar not just during the short period when he was a regular at that church, but for five or so years afterwards as well. Thankfully, though, he did eventually start to become more broad-minded and acknowledge that a lot of the worshippers there were hypocritical and holier-than-thou, but he is persisting in hanging on to Jesus all the same, which can’t be a bad thing either.
Seems there are two Jon’s commenting here so I’m putting my full name so you can tell us apart!
Why do we fear death? I think its for several reasons, firstly we fear suffering, secondly we fear the unknown and lastly we fear the lack of control/unpredictability of when death will occur.
I also think you can divide the fears into a fear of dying (the suffering associated with the illness/accident that causes your demise) and the fear of either not existing or any afterlife not being entirely pleasant.
For me the big mystery is suffering to which no religion seems to be able to fully explain. You can always to any explanation reply “why?” and at some point the explanation stops making sense. I guess now I’m closest to Buddhism as it doesn’t try to explain why suffering exists just acknowledges it does and offers steps to reduce or even overcome it. It seems things exist only because something else exists so any explanation of existence of anything including suffering gets caught in a circular argument.
I’m not a Christian as a bit like others here I was brought up as one but turned away by the black and whiteness of even the more moderate churches. For me there there are many paths to God and the Christian way is just but one and I always wonder if in the past the early church starting using fear to gain control and use fear as a way to recruit more followers?
As for the idea of false prophets the one thing the NDE researcher Rene Jorgensen highlights is that you can be more open minded if you judge religions and people in general by their fruits as seen in Matthew 7:15-20. The warning here applies as much to priests,churches and Christians as it does to non-Christians.
The final thing I want to raise is what gives me the biggest uncertainty that I’ll exist after death? Well that comes from the fact that when I’m in deep sleep or when in past I had anesthetic my conscious awareness seems to cease to exist. So where I am, my soul or whatever I truly am when I’m unconscious? Its also confusing that only some people near death have an NDE (or at least remember it) while most are just unconscious. Nan I’d love to hear at some point what your view is on this last point.
Any thanks to Nan and all the commenters here for such a thought provoking and open minded discussion.
Without suffering you cant have happiness, things go in pairs of opposites.Without death theres no birth, left and right, take away the left then there is no right.Its only right with reference to left.Think about this and its a meditation really.
Why there is suffering is the same as saying why is there joy.There isnt one without the other.
Something to ponder
Not afraid of death but am afraid of dieing.
Out of curiosity, how does this all square with your Christian beliefs?
It does, but not in a linear fashion. Too long to explain in a comment, but will post about it (at some point–I’m still backed up on the current topic!)
What’s the point of being afraid of death? that would be my question. I’ve faced death a few times. luckily, I pulled through.
I can say I wasn’t afraid.
It’s best to concentrate on what you have to do while you’re here. After all that’s why you came. The hardest part is having to re discover who you are, finding and accepting yourself.
All this is a process that takes place within you over time. God if you want to call it that, is within you because you and everything else are part of God. Your closest point of contact is within.
Nancy: I have just reread Francis Chan’s “Erasing Hell” for maybe the third time. Francis has concluded that there is a Hell, but that its exact nature is unclear except that its very unpleasant and unending. The problem as I see it is that gross evil does seem to exist and some form of punishment is demanded if we are to have any kind of justice at all. As a christian I have enough problems with my own failings to worry about hell’s nature, I only want to avoid it and I suspect I deserve it, save for the blood of Christ.
As for fearing death, yes I do, but then I am a materialistic reductionist and only believe in what I see, and don’t see.
Dave, thanks for reminding me about Francis Chan’s book, which I’ve been meaning to look at. Our problem, seems to me, is that any ideas we come up with about hell (or anything else, for that matter) are defined by their source in a human brain. That is most likely not what God is using. For that reason, I find it extremely difficult to take human reasoning and concluding as a final word, especially about things after death…assuming there is something. Like you, I have enough problems with my own failings, so I try to keep my aspirations to following Jesus’s injunctions about love and inclusion. Thanks.
I spent most of my life in utter terror of the Christian hell. My sojourn in Universalism helped me immensely, but in the past couple of years it has been Swedenborg who has re-awakened my fears. I will never be good enough for Swedenborg’s heaven.
Rob, I do not mean to be flip with this answer, but my immediate suggestion is to stick with universalism and stay away from Swedenborg. I have the same reaction as you, and am simply unwilling to clutter up the only life I know with fears based on someone else’s thinking. No one will ever be good enough for Swedenborg’s heaven, and I choose not to believe that God was wasting his time on the concept. Peace.
That’s fine; I’ve ditched Swedenborg anyway. He’s poisonous.
🙂
Im grateful that you answer my question.As sensitive beings our primordial goal is to avoid suffering,especially the kind of suffering that last for long.When the fear of eternal suffering appear in the human mind? First,the concept of infinity seems not appearing in human mind beyond years 500-1000 BC.No animal and no human had this concept before.For all we know the concept of eternal(infinite) suffering appear in ancient Greece ,in the battle between greek mystery cults.These first “churches” fight eachother for attracting followers and develop more and more scary scenarios for the ones that didn’t join the cult.The punishments become more an more severe and longer.It was
only a matter of time until joining the concept of infinity whit the one of suffering.In the hindu world saw a similar development,whit hindu or buddist sects trying to develop more and more scary scenarios for sinners.In buddhist religion there was no eternal hell because doctrine of “nothing is eternal(infinite)” is a major teaching of this religion.That didn’t stop buddhist monks to develop hells whit
punishments that extend for trilions of years(thats sound almost like an eternity).In the hindu realm,very late some hindu scholars(Madhva for example) develop the concept of “eternal reincarnating souls” for the most evil sinners.As human life contain inescapable types of suffering,an infinite number of reincarnations is the hindu equivalent for eternal hell.
Not all hells contain flames of fire.An infinite headache or infinite long tooth pain is as scary for me as eternal flames,because not the type or intensity of suffering is the scariest part ,but duration in time.An eternal nail pain,eternal boredom(boredom is the suffering created by the lack of new),eternal fear(suffering that anticipate another suffering) are just as scary as the flames.Zoroastrian hell was not about flames because the fire was sacred.The suffering of hell was created by the lack of fire(extreme coldness or darkness).
What is the purpose of suffering? From a biological point of view all is clear.Pain helps the selfish genes to survive as long as posible,indiferent to the suffering they cause to the carriers(of genes).Biological universe simply doesn’t care about how much suffering is infilcting.Maybe the nde’s are the ultimate trick of genes to keep us(in fact genes) alive,either by scarring us whit “bad nde’s” or rewarding us whit “good nde’s” about the “purpose of life”.Unlike animals that survive on instinct,no matter how miserable their life
is,humans in pain need cultural reasons not to comit suicide(ending genes existence).Is the biological nature so smart to elaborate such complex scenarios(like ndes) to keep us alive?
That’s biology but what will be the metaphysical reason for suffering? Some nde’s talk about the suffering as an element for growth,but growth for what?Why is so much suffering necessary fo learning? And learning what?Wouldnt be learning posible in a universe 100% happy ,or suffering is simultaneously dominated by happiness? The concept of learning itself shows that metaphysical universe,or part of it ,is either finite or imperfect.You dont need to learn in a perfect or infinite universe.And the reason that we cant feel the light whithout the dark doesn’t stand.We are able to feel happines and suffering in the same time.In fact we do it all the time.Our masochistic nature make us to simultaneously enjoy the trill(happiness) of a horror movie and the pain of fear.As long as the intensity of happiness is equal
or bigger than the intensity of suffering all is fine.Happiness is formed by 1-intensity,2-duration and 3-diversity(knowledge).And suffering just adding to the diversity-knowledge part.
Or maybe is the desire of some beings to experiment pure suffering for curiosity ,just like we put our finger in fire just to temporary experiment “how it feels like” the pain of fire.
Other universes are posible.Not just the one when a God punish the sinners,or cant reason whit them,but also an metaphysical universe that is like a computer,indiferent to eternal suffering of its inhabitants(biological universe its just like that,happilly not eternal).Or a sadistic universe where a sadist God create these beings in order to have fun whit them.
In other words not just the classical hell is scary for me but also the possibility of an indifferent or sadistic universe whit infinite suffering, no matter what type.
I was pleased to see some activity on this thread again.
I wonder if anyone out there has heard of or read “Loved: A Transcendent Journey” by Mary Deioma. It’s quite a short book and can be read in one sitting. It’s kind of interesting, but I don’t really know what to make of it. To be blunt – is it true? It rings true-(ish) to me, but I don’t know – what does anyone out there make of it (if there’s anyone who’s read it.)
Apologies for anyone who replies but I’m away for the next couple of weeks without access to this site. I’ll look forward to any thoughts anyone has on my return.
Talking of universalism and hell what do you think of Kevin Williams site?
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research14.html
For a long time I struggled with the idea of hell and christianity being the “only” way. Since finding universalism and reading more widely from Buddhism and other religions I start to see and underlying unity and do wonder if “this is the only” way stuff is just human stuff that has got into many religions?
Sometimes like Dave & Rob I find myself drifting back to fear of being wrong but I really don’t see the point of getting one life and the being sent eternally to hell if I get it “wrong”. I now have faith that I’ll get where I need to be eventually and look to enjoy the journey.
About Kevin Williams, who is without a doubt among the most dedicated NDErs, I think his site is encyclopedic, comprehensive, and useful, but without much parsing.
For a long time I struggled with the idea of hell and some religious organisations/groups claiming to be the “only” way. Since finding Christian universalism and reading more widely from Buddhism and other religions I start to see an underlying unity and do wonder if “this is the only” way stuff is just human stuff that has got into many religions?
Sometimes like Dave & Rob I find myself drifting back to fear of being wrong but I really don’t see the point of getting one life and the being sent eternally to hell if I get it “wrong”. I now have faith that I’ll get where I need to be eventually and look to enjoy the journey.
Certainly Nan your books and articles made me realise that the psyche is a key part of all this. After reading about distressing NDEs I do think back to both the story of Jesus being tested in the wilderness and the similar story of the Buddha similarly facing the forces of Mara before he gained enlightenment. Seems that to get the highest spiritual states you often have to go through quite testing experiences.
I wish this site had a Like button!
Im grateful that you answer my question.As sensitive beings our primordial goal is to avoid suffering,especially the kind of suffering that last for long.When the fear of eternal suffering appear in the human mind? First,the concept of infinity seems not appearing in human mind beyond years 500-1000 BC.No animal and no human had this concept before.For all we know the concept of eternal(infinite) suffering appear in ancient Greece ,in the battle between greek mystery cults.These first “churches” fight eachother for attracting followers and develop more and more scary scenarios for the ones that didn’t join the cult.The punishments become more an more severe and longer.It was
only a matter of time until joining the concept of infinity whit the one of suffering.In the hindu world saw a similar development,whit hindu or buddist sects trying to develop more and more scary scenarios for sinners.In buddhist religion there was no eternal hell because doctrine of “nothing is eternal(infinite)” is a major teaching of this religion.That didn’t stop buddhist monks to develop hells whit
punishments that extend for trilions of years(thats sound almost like an eternity).In the hindu realm,very late some hindu scholars(Madhva for example) develop the concept of “eternal reincarnating souls” for the most evil sinners.As human life contain inescapable types of suffering,an infinite number of reincarnations is the hindu equivalent for eternal hell.
Not all hells contain flames of fire.An infinite headache or infinite long tooth pain is as scary for me as eternal flames,because not the type or intensity of suffering is the scariest part ,but duration in time.An eternal nail pain,eternal boredom(boredom is the suffering created by the lack of new),eternal fear(suffering that anticipate another suffering) are just as scary as the flames.Zoroastrian hell was not about flames because the fire was sacred.The suffering of hell was created by the lack of fire(extreme coldness or darkness).
What is the purpose of suffering? From a biological point of view all is clear.Pain helps the selfish genes to survive as long as posible,indiferent to the suffering they cause to the carriers(of genes).Biological universe simply doesn’t care about how much suffering is infilcting.Maybe the nde’s are the ultimate trick of genes to keep us(in fact genes) alive,either by scarring us whit “bad nde’s” or rewarding us whit “good nde’s” about the “purpose of life”.Unlike animals that survive on instinct,no matter how miserable their life
is,humans in pain need cultural reasons not to comit suicide(ending genes existence).Is the biological nature so smart to elaborate such complex scenarios(like ndes) to keep us alive?
That’s biology but what will be the metaphysical reason for suffering? Some nde’s talk about the suffering as an element for growth,but growth for what?Why is so much suffering necessary fo learning? And learning what?Wouldnt be learning posible in a universe 100% happy ,or suffering is simultaneously dominated by happiness? The concept of learning itself shows that metaphysical universe,or part of it ,is either finite or imperfect.You dont need to learn in a perfect or infinite universe.And the reason that we cant feel the light whithout the dark doesn’t stand.We are able to feel happines and suffering in the same time.In fact we do it all the time.Our masochistic nature make us to simultaneously enjoy the trill(happiness) of a horror movie and the pain of fear.As long as the intensity of happiness is equal
or bigger than the intensity of suffering all is fine.Happiness is formed by 1-intensity,2-duration and 3-diversity(knowledge).And suffering just adding to the diversity-knowledge part.
Or maybe is the desire of some beings to experiment pure suffering for curiosity ,just like we put our finger in fire just to temporary experiment “how it feels like” the pain of fire.
Other universes are posible.Not just the one when a God punish the sinners,or cant reason whit them,but also an metaphysical universe that is like a computer,indiferent to eternal suffering of its inhabitants(biological universe its just like that,happilly not eternal).Or a sadistic universe where a sadist God create these beings in order to have fun whit them.
In other words not just the classical hell is scary for me but also the possibility of an indifferent or sadistic universe whit infinite suffering, no matter what type.
I find this guy’s writings massivley helpful when it comes to this: http://www.danielebolelli.com/2012/07/09/commencement-speech-bolelli-style/
http://www.danielebolelli.com/2012/12/13/in-the-beginning-was-fear/
Also, I’m wondering if you’ll ever touch on the uses of ethenogens? I’ve never used them myself but I’ve been struck by how similar to NDEs experiences have been described as.
Bolelly is terrific! Thanks for pointing to him. Entheogens have never particularly interested me, but the subject is worth a discussion. Lots of thanks today.
Entheogens, argh, I can’t spell today.
Well, to contribute a different experience: I grew up being bombarded with many different religions as a system kid (child in the foster care system). The people administering their faith onto me did not provide any comfort. But I wasn’t horrified by them either. I had my own spiritual horror that I couldn’t tell them about. I dealt with it through my own spiritual path in life. I was a seeker. I had my own understanding of the Bible verses. I found my own spirituality, which is to say I found my own spiritual path, using whatever helped, be it Catholicism or what not. I could spot crap, and avoided it easily. “Crap”, meaning religious fundamentalism…although at a young age, I wasn’t familiar with that term yet, so I used the term ‘crap’.
I’ve just seen Toma’s post. Although dated September I’ve only just seen it. I feel I must make some comments about the hugely pessimistic world view but need some time to give it some thought. Life must be extremely difficult for Toma with all that dread hanging over her (or maybe him.) I’ll get my thoughts together and post a reply within a day or so if I may.
I had a mixed experience as an infant in the late 1950s that lasted for about three days. As far as I can tell, death could have occurred while I was drifting in and out of unconscious. I’m pretty sure that I had this experience because I was suppose to die. Medicine and my mother finally saved me,
I am going to attempt to finish the comment that I accidentally sent on October 22nd. Sorry for creating a mess, Nancy, and thank you for cleaning it up. I’m keeping this simple because everything in my experience that was ‘not of the light’ was irritating, to say the least, and had misused powers that most people don’t have (thank God).
When I had my experience, I feared being separated from my family more than death. My words for death were no life. From what I’ve been able to gather, there are three ways to have no life; lack of consciousness, having our life’s energy sucked out, and being killed. The suckers were in darkness and the killers were in exile. They were not all bad, but couldn’t be trusted to behave themselves.
I don’t know how an infant, who could barely put two words together, was capable of experiencing (and surviving) this, but do know that if I can do it, anyone can. I’m convinced that the Golden Rule is a way of life, not just a saying, and that it takes great self-discipline to achieve the level of enlightenment it offers. I also believe that we are having these experiences because we are evolving. They are meant to improve the quality of life, in my opinion, and the only connection they have with death is that it’s one way to transcend. Religions have been practicing other techniques for a long time, which may be why experiences such as mine have a religious quality.
Am I afraid of death, as in no life? Absolutely! A difficult life is better than no life at all, and improving the quality of life, not just for ourselves, is a great life. (Now I am intentionally pushing the send button. Have a good life!)
Jill, I’m glad for you that you got your comment the way you wanted. Lotta hard work on your part went into that!
One of the reasons I believe so strongly in the truth behind all these NDEs is the testimony I have heard from a couple of people whose NDEs happened when they were pre-verbal toddlers, one of them a newborn. Yours is now part of that foundation. Many thanks!
If it’s any comfort, no one–absolutely no one–knows how these experiences work, or how, as you say, babies who are only beginning to learn language can have access to such sophisticated and articulate understandings. One of the great mysteries. It is sometimes a great burden on the little ones…and on the grown-up people they turn out to be.
Thanks very much for your insights, which make a lot of sense to me. Your final paragraph is very helpful, as I’ve been struggling to articulate that very idea.
I, of course, have had a long time to ponder my experience, study IANDS and now your information, Nancy. That last paragraph, by the way, is a mixture of my experience and how grateful I am for people such as yourself.
The burden issue seems to go along with the experience. I will try to explain how I handle it as simply as possible: The light from my experience is my God. Over the years, I have created a religion of one member; I refuse to lead, expect no followers, but do enjoy good company. It’s God’s job, not mine, to carry the burdens of this world. It took me a long time to realize this and, once I did, my heart filled with joy which I freely share. I am no longer a self-imposed burden carrier and love being human warts and all!
I have a question for you…have you heard of anything supporting the fact a person “can be dead, but not know” and be stuck on the earth plane such as a spirit who has not crossed over? I have read about this and wonder in any one in the NDE research has found any substance to this claim?
I have heard there are “spirit rescuers” from the Spirit World whose task it is to find such souls…
Just wondering your thoughts on this Nancy…
…clarification, should not have used the word “fact” in my post above but rather “belief” I have seen in the Spiritists writings and books…
You have worked so much in this field of thanatology thought you might have some insight….
Laurie, like you, I have heard about spirits that (who?) don’t know they are dead, and about spirit rescuers–but I do not have enough information to have formed an opinion. No first-hand experience at all. Quite possibly someone who reads these comments will be able to shed some light. Thanks for asking. I appreciate your confidence!
I don’t have any personal research data to offer on the “dead-but-not-know-it” spirits, or wandering spirits.
However I have spent time with ghost hunters and I am almost fully convinced that at least 90% of the “ghostly” phenomena they encounter can be explained by Earthly means…ie. squeaky pipes, light reflections, etc. But that remaining 10% or less may be the wandering spirits you speak of.
(**Cue the Perry Mason theme**)
And that remains for not the traditional ghosthunters to investigate them, but psychically sensitive people (who are also morally responsible) to do that task. And that task in itself could be a journey of growth too.
NOTE: I know Nancy advised me to stop using the screen name “Hellboy”, but its not for the reasons she may be thinking that I use it. My use of that name is actually a relic of my recovery from all the “hell” I been through in the first 2 thirds of my life. “Hellboy” is actually the name of a SUPERHERO!
http://www.journaldugeek.com/2014/07/15/hellboy-3-ne-verra-jamais-le-jour/
I chose that particular superhero’s name as sort of poetic humor, not as any sort of stigma.
Gotcha. I’d forgotten the superhero character! Thanks.
To answer the title question myself, “Are you afraid of death?”, I can say: yes and no.
In the beginning, I was indeed past-deathly afraid of death! I didn’t wanna die! Of course, I was just 7 and had only just learned about people’s inevitable mortality. But I also saw the darkness that lies beyond death, and I didn’t want any part of it!
I was afraid of hospitals too!
But after years of spiritual journeying and development, I can say that I’m not afraid of the life beyond. However, I am still afraid of the PROCESS of death. Meaning, I would NOT want to be stabbed, shot, fall from a building, or any other violent ways of death that involve harm done to my body. I prefer a peaceful death.
You know what?…….You can go round and round about this, and when you’re through whistling in the dark, it comes down to one thing. If you want to get to heaven, find it here, within you before you leave.
When you can love fully, facing all the cruelty, greed, and atrocity of the human condition, emphasizing with and caring about others, and all the life around you…then you have it. This also means realizing all the ways you yourself have missed the boat. Those who are truly honest with themselves have humility.
Here’s a poem I wrote for my spiritual Black son Bashawn, who was murdered in the street. His father had deserted him, I stepped in.
I was given a photograph to remember him by.
They framed you and you
hang on my wall
Your gaze tells me
how you’ve seen it all.
Anger and love there
in your face.
So strong, never back down
Stand and die before disgrace
In a street world
of the quick and the dead
The predators
and the misled
And an old White Man
You were Black
I loved you and you loved me back
He shot you
because the strength of your spirit for him
was just too much
By its power he was nothing
and his gun was his crutch
From your picture
I feel your spirit
and what you taught me
Is part of me now
for always
Now I can see
what I was blind to before
You were my teacher
Thank you
Another pretty awesome bit of writing that might help with this:http://peterrollins.net/2011/03/to-hell-with-jesus/
With Rollins, I think “awesome” is often an understatement! Thanks for this–it’s classic! Awesome, too.
Nan
You don’t have to post this, but I left out a line in the poem by mistake. Teresa his mother, considered me Bashawn’s father biological or not.
After the murder, between the two of us, we scraped up enough money to bury him three days later. Unfortunately, My white son Chris had his wedding scheduled on that same afternoon, and I had to attend both.
It wouldn’t Be fair to leave Teresa out of the poem. I didn’t mean to. Her grandmother kicked her out into the street with her baby, and she raised Bashawn by herself.
For Bashawn
They framed you and you hang on my wall
Your gaze tells me how you’ve seen it all
Park benches back exits too
A place to sleep for your teen age mother
and you.
Anger and love there in your face
So strong, never back down
Stand and die before disgrace
In a street world of the quick and the dead
and an old white man
You were Black
I loved you and you loved me back
He shot you because the strength of your spirit
For him was just too much
By it’s power he was nothing
and his gun was his crutch
From your picture I feel your spirit
and what you taught me is part of me now
For always
Now I can see what I was blind to before
You were my teacher
Thank you
You don’t “get over” a loss like this, you embrace it. I live in a working poor neighborhood now with drug dealing and occasional gun violence.
The house next door also has “working girls”. When they leave in the evening to work the streets, if I’m out on my porch, I lean out and say “get home safe dear”.