Today’s post is perhaps my short answer to the question of whether hell is real in a physical sense. For that, we go back to John Shore for a quote from his Kindle booklet Hell No! Extinguishing Christian Hellfire.
Shore is worth reading whether you consider yourself religious, or a none, or secular, or Christian, or outright atheist, because in his iconoclastic writing the bones of the discussion come clear. His work is deep, fun, and memorable. Not everyone, including me, will agree with everything he says (and you’ll see immediately why I say that), but still…
You remember my story last week about the spring at the oasis? John Shore is over there right now, throwing off rocks.
Is Hell Real? What Are We, Six?
So, to state something so obvious I should be embarrassed to type it: No one has any idea—none, zero, zilch, nada, void, total blank—what happens to anyone after they die. Could be heaven awaiting. Could be hell. Could be a Dairy Queen; could be a dentist’s waiting room; could be a six-room ranch-style igloo; could be interplanetary pinochle tournament. No. One. Knows. It’s. Not. Knowable.
Paul enjoins us to give up childish things, and you can’t get more childish than pretending the Bible is a magical window that lets you see beyond life. It isn’t. It doesn’t. You can’t. Trying to use the Bible as proof of what happens after we die is like trying to use a telescope to row a canoe. Wrong instrument. Wrong purpose. Certain failure. Still stuck floating haplessly about. The only thing we know for sure about what happens to us after we die is that in this life we don’t, can’t, and won’t have any idea what happens to us after we die.
I believe God made and sustains this world. So for me the All-Time Great Question is: Why can’t we know what happens to us after we die?
…I think keeping the afterlife a complete mystery is God’s way of telling us to pay maximum attention to the life we have on this side of the door. That the ever-fluid now of our life is where the action is. As clearly as he possibly can, I think he’s telling us to with full and focused consciousness be in our lives. To love our lives. To believe in our lives. To trust that within every single moment of our lives is virtually everything that we could ever want to know.
…The question of whether or not hell is real is properly subsumed by the truth that a moment spent worrying if you’ll be with God in the afterlife is an opportunity missed to be with God in this life. Or, as we have it in the teen version … If you’re worried too much about the afterlife, you’re not worried enough about this life. Living a life of love means not having to worry about hell.
You see why I wanted to make this introduction. He’ll make you think. Shore, John (2011-08-25). Hell No! Extinguishing Christian Hellfire. Kindle Edition.If you have access to Amazon, you can find his books/booklets there, and you’d be hard pressed to find a better conversation-starter for $4.99 than this. His blog is at johnshore.com (subtitled, “Trying God’s Patience Since 1958,” which says a lot right there).
This was originally intended to be the third post in a three-part series, but this is unlikely to be the last word. So many questions, comments, things to recommend, so much to say! Next time, how a no-longer-fundamentalist Evangelical Christian has changed her opinion.
This has been my take on this. I agree totally. I’ve put it like this. We only learn from this process to the extent of how deeply we’re involved. To be fully aware of the after/before life as we live this physical life would make us mere spectators, not students.
The trials I’ve been through, and the emotional stress that created the confusion in the learning process, have made me go ever deeper into myself.
I know one thing for sure. It’s inner contact with yourself that counts. If you can’t understand through feeling within you, you’ll never undestand what’s going on around you.
“I believe God made and sustains this world.”
Now Nancy, you know good and well that’s magical thinking.
Modern day Really Smart People believe that the universe was made from nothing. By nothing.
Just ask Lawrence Krauss or Richard Dawkins.
😀
Am I the only one enjoying the sarcasm?? hehehe
Really a very deep subject,I remember a letter from Napoleon Bonaparte (around the year of 1804) in a larger question asking almost the same thing Why can’t we know what happens to us after we die? I have exactly the same question (in the year 2012) and of course I have not a good an decent answer to share, but sometimes facing this I remember when solving differential equations ( are used to model real world problems in engineering) that the more complex can only be solved within some boundary conditions that means that solutions are only possible in some unique set of conditions, may be we are something like that in the sense that a free will, intelligent, material form of life with a eternal soul inside can only be possible with that blind side.
I completely agree that we are now and we must be focused in this now but I can not forget that the´…longest journey over endless seas…´is waiting for me so we are in a labyrinth but seems to me that there are markers pointing us in the rigth direction, there are breadcrumbs being left for us when we try to follow our heart instead of our head.
I look forward to sharing my thoughts on this subject in evolving blog conversation with your fantastic work. For now: IANDS 2012 Debrief Introduction.
Thank you for everything.
I like Shore’s overall vibe and appreciate his story. All the same, I don’t think asking whether or not hell is real puts us on the level of a six-year-old.
To ask, “Is hell real?” is pretty much to ask “Is God good?” They are negatively correlated: no to one is yes to the other, and vice versa. Now, I’m not talking about “hell as rehab” or “hell as remedial school” here. I’m talking about hell as classically understood – hell as the place where a wrathful God who-has-had-it-up-to-here-with-us-all is going to ease the rage he’s been experiencing by having to countenance our innate sinfulness displayed through our simple act of existing during the duration of our very short lives. How is he going to ease that rage? By giving us imperishable bodies and handing us over to demons to be sexually defiled and otherwise physically tormented, forever and ever (Amen dependent upon what side of the gulf you’re affixed to). I’ve read ministers/theologians state that the existence of hell will only magnify the joy of heaven for those there – the privilege of watching the damned tormented in hell will only serve to increase the pleasure.
That’s only part of what asking “Is hell real?” really means. It determines the character of God – and to someone who wants to have moral integrity, it means a lot. If we want to be good, we must be better than God. We must forgive 70×7 times, we must turn the other cheek, even when our “infinite perfection is infinitely offended” and we must love those who persecute us. Additionally we must go the extra mile. God could apparently talk the talk, but not walk the walk according to mainstream theology.
Which is a strange thing, considering how much he disliked hypocrites.
I’m loving this whole conversation!
Philemon, I think that with his “What are we, six?” comment, Shore is agreeing with you wholeheartedly. He’s assuming that we’re beyond believing that kind of unbelievably angry God.
Hi Nan,
Perhaps. I’m not so sure though. From what I recall of his article, he was saying that worrying about the afterlife takes away our time to simply be close to God in the here-and-now, which is where he argued we should put our focus. I thought that was what he was saying an adult should do – whereas the six year old focuses on other possibilities. For me, the specter of hell is so awful that it keeps many out of the here-and-now. Additionally, how does one not only worship, but trust something so dangerous as a God who might do toss you into hell?
On a side note of interest: Eben Alexander’s book is taking a pounding by fundamentalists. Some of the first reviews were attacks on the book not according with Christian doctrine and one goes so far as to call it a trick by Satan to lead Christians astray.
The roots of Western tradition are Jewish, where emphasis has always been on the spirituality of life. Yahweh was a god of the living, not of the dead, and had no interest in Sheol, scholars say. In Jewish tradition, reward and punishment are in this life. Despite this bedrock underpinning to Jesus’ teaching, as a theology of the resurrection became highly developed, Christian spirituality shifted focus to what happens after we die. Living is important as the means of determining what would happen after death (not getting into the predestination argument here). The material world of physical bodies has been seen as less worthy than the ethereal world of spirit.
We are seeing the gradual development of a movement to recapture the sacredness of life here and now. It has taken some 1,700 years for many people to step back and really look at how we think of the character of God, which is really the point Shore is making. What kind of a God is God, and as you say, can we trust something so dangerous as one tho would establish hell?
The fundamentalists will have a field day with Eben Alexander, as they have with NDE literature generally, except for the books that take a fundamentalist slant. It has long been the argument that anything that does not support those tenets is a satanic lure. A closed circle, impervious to debate or discussion.
I feel, Nan, as I read over your work, and especially your responses to comments, that I am in the virtual classroom of a deeply thoughtful and caring teacher who is very much committed to advancing knowledge about distressing NDEs in a therapeutic way.
As a repeat hellfire NDEr who has turned both to ancient thought and the contemporary research of IANDS for corroboration and support, the most important lesson for me to learn from your presentation of Shore’s material is the need to always maintain a light and loving touch as those who are not hellfire NDErs confidently inform me that neither NDEs nor hellfire are even knowable!
Two questions come up – one basic, one advanced.
1. Basic
Shore says, “I think keeping the afterlife a complete mystery is God’s way of telling us to pay maximum attention to the life we have on this side of the door.”
What is the name of the specific God whom Shore claims to be speaking for here, and on what basis does he rest his authority to speak on his, her, or its behalf?
2. Advanced
The first line of Shore’s website reads, “With this concise little atom bomb of a book Mr. Shore blows away the idea that hell is a necessary component of Christianity.”
It is clear that we must allow and encourage religious and academic freedom, but at the same time, it is also clear that we cannot allow the reality of hell to be misunderstood by those who represent us at the UN.
This, in turn, requires sufficient education of our electorate to prevent the election of a US President who does not personally fear the consequence of an aeon in hell for war crimes, ecocide, or crimes against humanity.
At the same time, religious educators in the US must collaborate with the leaders of other UN states to enforce a common ethical and interfaith curriculum.
This is necessary so that we do not find the security of all nations threatened by a single state of miseducated militants who commit war crimes, refuse to recognize universal jurisdiction, and sit on an arsenal of ready-alert WMDs powerful enough to wipe out millions if not billions of human lives in a single day of nuclear devastation.
Even if these weapons are never used, but maintained only for “deterrence” (allowing conventional war crimes, ecocide, crimes against humanity, and international aggression to be committed with impunity), the majority of citizens in a democracy who tolerate such a state of affairs are surely themselves headed for an aeon in hell, unless they repent and agree to disarm, in good faith, under an international safeguards regime.
When we engage in Christ-based interfaith dialogue with the religious scholars who inhabit and tolerate the most dangerous of these nuclear-armed states, what final soft-power “weapon” is left to the God-fearing but a lucid and loving exposition on the reality of a hellfire aeon for those who still think it is necessary or justifiable to threaten the use of a WMD under any circumstance?
Hi, Jonathan. I appreciate your kind thoughts now and was so glad to have you come to the conference workshop. As for your questions, first, about the name of the God which John Shore invokes. Shore is a Christian. The name of his God is God. My name for God is God, as would be the case for many/most of the people who read this blog. However, even when we carry similar religious and denominational banners, each of us will have our own version of what that name means, and all of us will have it partly right and mostly wrong, and none of us will have it completely right. The more doctrinal the beliefs, the more detail will have been added to our convictions, which may or may not be accurate. When we speak of God, we speak Mystery, not in a spooky sense but as in unfathomable. To know more about Shore’s God, read more Shore. I think you will find that the basis on which he rests his authority is his lived experience, as is the case for us all.
About your #2, Advanced comment, you stop me with “we cannot allow the reality of hell to be misunderstood…” Allowing is not in my job description, most particularly allowing how people choose to understand hell. I can do my own best, one crumb at a time, to create a path through the forest of beliefs to what I hope is a saner view. Everyone is invited to follow the trail, but it is not up to me to force that. It’s called “free will,” and it was not my invention. It is often an inconvenience.
Your passionate desire for peace and the end to weapons of war is shared. The problem is how to get there. Threatening hell has not proven successful over the past 1,700 years, and I don’t see it as likely to be successful going forward. My own view is that we need to be chary with our threats of hell and find more persuasive means of changing minds and hearts. Given my druthers, I’d probably institute conflict management as basic elementary school curriculum. Read Gandhi for clues.
Thank you, Nan. You certainly have not “allowed” my comment to pass unmoderated without making an appropriate effort to counter it in accordance with your standards for non-violent dialectic.
I asked the basic question about John Shore’s God because I simply could not understand how anyone who purports to believe in the God of Jesus Christ could possibly say that God’s plan for humanity was to keep the nature of the afterlife a complete mystery. Am I the only one who finds this a bit odd?
I thought Jesus made it clear that a specific entity named YHWH begot the Christ (however we choose to interpret this) precisely in order to reduce the afterlife mystery, and not the other way around. If YHWH had really wanted to keep the afterlife a total mystery, why send Moses the Law or Jesus the Logos, and on what grounds is Shore presuming to speak for YHWH in contradiction of Moses and Jesus? What I am missing here?
In my lived experience, I have found that some people base their arguments on tradition and sophistry, not common sense or revelation. I try to avoid buying their books. This is one of the reasons I found your book so important, satisfying and worth the money.
“With this concise little atom bomb of a book Mr. Shore blows away the idea that hell is a necessary component of Christianity.”
Let me put this another way. How do you think this reads in Japan? Coming from a Christian author in the only nation that has ever dropped an atomic bomb on anyone? That is objectively the greatest nuclear security threat on the planet? That is the largest arms dealer on the planet? That continues to escalate nuclear and conventional tensions worldwide?
We can talk about a lot of different ways to get beyond the arms race. I know they are at the UN. But when we are working with the people of the US, the majority of whom have very powerful unconscious beliefs in heaven and hell, and who have demonstrated their willingness to elect born-again Christians to wage wars of aggression against Muslim states on the basis of an end-times cosmology, perhaps it is legitimate not only to discuss the denial of hell’s existence, but a clarification about what kind of crimes will actually get you sent to hell, and the limits of Christ’s mercy.
Maybe there is no proportional response to crime in the afterlife, but all of the evidence I have in hand, from Plato and Buddha to my own NDEs, tells me this is exactly how it works, and that people who commit terrible crimes against humanity and nature have it the hardest.
I’ve had training in conflict resolution, and read Ghandi, but it is what the US will do on the UN Security Council over the next 4-8 years that appears to be pivotal in whether we start WWIII or save the planet, and I do not think we have time for all of those elementary school kiddos to grow up and solve the problem for us.
In my own NDEs, Christ seemed to leave it fairly open about which way I was personally going. I got the impression that if I didn’t clean up my act, and take more responsibility for my citizenship, His mercy could only go so far. But then I also got the impression that everyone is judged by a standard that applies to their specific life circumstances, i.e., what they knew at the time, how many people they had under them, how much wealth they had, et cetera, all according to some very advanced mathematics and a transcendentally parental love that encompasses the evolution of consciousness on much larger time scales, such that an aeon of hardship for a soul is by no means an unjust or unmerciful sentence – but is nonetheless something to be avoided at all costs.
I know you did not mean it this way, but one part of your comment reminds me of something very hurtful a person once said to me about my climate stabilization activism. She told me that it was disgusting I had so much hate in my heart that I would going around wishing global warming on the world.
Perhaps you agree with her, but I hope you will agree with me that there is a big difference between threatening people and warning people. Threatening to use a nuclear weapon is not the same as warning what God will do if a nuclear weapon is used. Threatening to torture people is not the same as warning people about the Godly torture their own Christ-born consciences will create for them in the afterlife if they commit a global crime against humanity.
Of course, this is all just my opinion, on the basis of my hellfire NDEs and subsequent research. It is certainly possible my cosmology is off. I am here, with you, in the quest to work it out.
Dear Jonathan, I am no match for your convictions. You have the advantage not only of the lessons from your NDEs but of the resulting high energy level which is fueling your passion. I’m more on a slow simmer these days as age reshapes my ability to move quickly, both physically and intellectually. My frustration is largely that on a global scale I have no idea how to resolve the problems you outline. I am deeply sorry that one part of my comment reminded you of something hurtful, especially as it turned out to be that woman’s absurd remark.
I share your love and concern for the environment, for the world, for trying to moderate the attitudes of the powers-that-be and WMD and everything behind them. It is simply that I know myself well enough to know that burnout and existential despair are just a hairsbreadth away if I give myself over to fights of that magnitude, for which I have so few skills and such little talent. So, my approach is…one bread crumb at a time through a thicket.
There are other good people reading this blog who will perhaps be able to comment and support your quest more actively than I can. I hope you will stick around despite the frustration. I’ll be doing my best to understand more fully.
#1 You lack an actual gospel. That’s the first problem.
#2 It’s about time somebody said what I’m going to post here. When there is a contradiction, common logic means your hell-fire NDEs proves nothing. Read and see:
Why do you reject this person’s Jesus story? Read and notice at the end that he had a changed life too: IANDS – “I was hit by a car while riding my motorcycle. I died on the operating table. I went through the dark into the light – a soft bluish light. An entity (Jesus to me) was of the light, and the light was a doorway. I was not in this body, but I was as normal as my body here. We spoke without speaking. Joy was all over me. I was relieved to know it is real! Jesus said, “I know it hurts and I know it is bad. You have not done what you said you would do and must go back.” I refused. Jesus said, “You will come here, just not now…not yet. I am sorry.” Then I was on the operating table and heard someone say, “We got him” and then “Oh my God he is awake.” I AM NOW AN ORDAINED MINISTER AND I PREACH. I WAS SHOWN THERE IS NO HELL. We all go home.”
I’ll give you another Jesus story…NDERF – Karen: “She took me and placed me in a crystal-like bed and told me to rest because there were beings who wanted to honor and welcome me. I saw beings cued up to greet me. I spied Jesus among them and immediately felt as though something was wrong. I asked the being who brought me, how it was that Jesus wants to honor me. I told her that I was afraid that putting myself at the same level as Jesus would damn me to hell. SHE LAUGHED AND TOLD ME THERE IS NO HELL. We are all equal in spirit form.”
Or why do you reject this one? Mac Wright: “Everyone goes to the same place. This includes Billy Graham, Hitler, and Jeffery Dahmer.”
What about this story, from a lady who was trafficked starting at 2 years old, and had a drowning NDE…Anne Murphy: “All there was, was the most unconditional love, compassion, pure and total acceptance with no judgement at all. I WAS SHOWN THAT THERE IS NO JUDGEMENT AND NO HELL, NO OPINIONS, NO PUNISHMENT, not like what we are taught here, about a judgemental God and being sent to hell if you’re bad, that was not the case. There was no judgement at all from the beings with me or from within myself. It was total compassion, and then remembering I chose my earthly experience. It was just an experience. Love is what we all are. THERE WAS NO SEPARATE GOD KEEPING SCORE AND DOLING OUT JUDGEMENTS AND PUNISHMENTS. THERE WAS NOTHING TO FORGIVE IN THAT STATE OF BEING. There was nothing negative, no shame, guilt, or sense of not being worthy. And I saw that for everybody. THERE WAS NO COMPARISON IN THAT STATE, SO EVERYTHING IS ACCEPTED COMPLETELY. THERE’S NO GREATER THAN, LESS THAN, OR SCORE KEEPING. I saw in my NDE that whether people loved or hated something about me in this human experience, was exactly the same. It was completely neutral. And they showed me what can happen to some people…some people can have a “hellish”” kind of experience…what I saw is that that is when people are still kind of stuck between the human and the…like they haven’t fully let go of all the human stuff. Which was self imposed, they believe they need to be judged or they think that’s the truth, so that happens. Because we’re required to drop it all. It all goes when we return to our true being, our true essence, our true home. Earth is all about contrast. Who we really are is unconditional love. My very abusive adoptive father died on the 28 of June this year and I helped him. He was terrified he was going to “the other place”, but in the weeks before, we had many discussions where I reminded him of his true self, what was waiting for him when he “goes home”, and that it was not necessary for him to judge himself and become stuck in some “hell” like state, and he didn’t. Right at the moment he passed, his true essence was with me, no longer the human and it was pure unconditional love and it went through me and I knew his true being. It was incredible. I shared his death experience with him. He had everyone waiting for him, but I couldn’t go in. There’s always a barrier. Only those moving fully into “death” pass that barrier.”
How about another one? N. Danison: “I very very slowly got out of my body, and then I popped out and I was standing in front of it going ‘what? I didn’t know you could do that’. And then I saw blackness. But I wasn’t afraid, it was comforting, it was comforting darkness. And then I saw a pinpoint of light and I said to myself ‘oh I know what this is, I’m supposed to go to the light.’ I WENT AND FELT WAVE AFTER WAVE OF UNCONDITIONAL LOVE, AND ACCEPTANCE, AND JOY. I started getting downloads of everything there was to know or could ever be known on lots of different topics. I had 360 degree vision. I did a couple experiments and proved to myself that just thinking a word manifested that environment. I saw five beautiful colored lights that I knew the names of. It was the first time I ever really felt home. I had a life review. I got the answers to all my questions. I was raised a catholic and was told that’s the one true religion. I was angry. I couldn’t imagine why anybody taught me this intricate religion when there wasn’t a bit of it that was true, and I had just gotten the truth literally right from the source. God is all knowing, unconditionally loving. THERE IS NO HELL. I remembered Source creating the universe and THERE WAS NO HELL CREATED. And then also Source told me THERE’S NO HELL. WE DO NOT HAVE TO EARN HEAVEN. We do not enter into human life to evolve, to learn how to love, or to learn how to be more spiritual. We souls are already pieces of Source/God’s own self-awareness and cannot get more evolved, loving, or spiritual than while in our spiritual state. ALL PEOPLE RETURN TO THE SAME PLACE AFTER DEATH. ‘Knowing’ informed me that when a being like me enters into a human as its soul, only part of its total energy does so. The rest of the being’s energy stays in the Light and continues to evolve as it observes the soul part’s experiences.”
NDEs For your information:
Need more? R. Moreno: “I’m N. American and experienced an NDE. I WAS TOLD there is no religion and NO HELL. I was shown many things. It has not been easy being here as I didn’t want to come back.”
Have another one….A. Johnson: “I can tell you one thing for sure, THERE WAS NO JUDGEMENT. THERE WAS NOTHING I HAD EVER DONE THAT WASN’T COMPLETELY FORGIVEN, AND ‘FORGIVEN’ IN THAT CONTEXT MEANT IT WAS GONE. It did not exist. GOD WASN’T HOLDING ME ACCOUNTABLE FOR THAT, God was loving me right through it, and IT WAS TOTAL AND COMPLETE FORGIVENESS. We dont have to prove ourselves to be loved by God. What I learned on the other side is that THERE’S NO JUDGEMENT ON US, NONE, ZIP, NADA. IN THE OTHER REALM THERE’S NO JUDGEMENT BECAUSE THERE’S NOTHING TO JUDGE. We’re all pure unconditional love. THERE’S NO HELL, THERE’S NO PUNISHMENT. When you realize there’s nothing to forgive, then there’s nothing to punish either.”
Do you reject this one also? B. Macrelli: “I too have died and brought back by doctors. In 2009 I was kidnapped and stabbed four times in the chest and died. I didn’t feel it and was unaware that I was even stabbed, my spirit left my body and it was the best feeling in the world. Completely free, and you’re right THERE IS NO HELL. And I have also learned that religions are hard wired into the brain according to your culture. It is so tragic that people live their entire lives in fear of something they will never encounter.”
Here’s another one for you…L. Mason: “I died. Time froze. Met God that appeared as a pure white light. Let me ask questions. Told me I had to return. Pushed me down with a hand on my left. Earth is a play pen. THERE’S NO HELL. WE ARE ALL FORGIVEN WHEN WE DIE. We all are connected when we die. In human bodies that link is very faint. That is the hole we try to fill with money/drugs/addiction.”
Should I keep going? Here’s another one for you….Anita Moorjani: “IS THERE A HELL? This is a question I get asked over and over…and THE ANSWER IS HELL NO! I often marvel at how inventive we humans are and at all the stories we’ve created over the millennia to explain what happens to us after death. I was extremely fearful of death before my NDE. I was afraid of karma, and in fact, I believed that my cancer was caused by karma. When I was on the other side, I expected to get punished for all the things I did wrong. I thought there was judgement for all the things we had done wrong. BUT INSTEAD THERE WAS COMPASSION AND UNDERSTANDING FOR WHY I DID WHAT I DID. The souls that cross over take with them their education from their time on earth, as experiences are not judged any more than people are. I understood clearly that there is no judgement on the other side, THERE IS NO MORAL HAMMER THAT IS DROPPED; I saw clearly that this is a human device used by other humans to make us fall in line with the moral majority. Since there is no judgement on the other side, there is no punishment. We gain an understanding of the effects we had on everyone else, but before we are pulled into the human drama of regret or guilt, we are uplifted to understand that we are not judged. We are left with a complete understanding from the other side that there is nothing but love for our souls, and our lives as they were. There is a great section in my book where I address this topic. The section is called “Judgement Day Cometh Not”. I WOULD NEVER USE THE PHRASE ‘BAD KARMA’, AS I DON’T BELIEVE THERE IS SUCH A THING. I simply believe all aspects of life are needed to create the whole. Neither do I believe anymore that we live out all our lives sequentially in linear time, which is the framework that many people have for their ideas about karma. In the NDE state, however, I realized that every moment in all our lives–past, present, future – unknown, unknown, and unknowable–exist simultaneously, as though outside of what we know as time.”
I’ll keep going….B. Elsworth: “But personally, through my own NDE, I remember coming back and as beautiful and shocking to my ego as the experience was, I remember driving in my car and laughing to myself thinking, “Well I wish I could tell my younger self he’s NOT GOING TO HELL, BECAUSE THERE IS NONE!” YOU CAN’T DO ANY WRONG…even (ra*e + mu*der + the hol*caust) in God’s perspective, but that’s not a license to do crazy stuff, “God” is just that unconditionally loving. HE CAN’T EVEN FORGIVE YOU, BECAUSE YOU CAN DO NO WRONG. We truly are inseparable from boundless infinite love.”
Notice this one…Andrew Petro: “I didn’t want to come back. I said I’m home and I want to stay here. I was stuffed back into my body, which by this time was found at the bottom of the lake, dragged up onto the beach, and my friends were on top of me pushing the water out of my lungs. When I popped back into my body, I immediately started coughing the water up from my lungs. When I was in the light and I was observing all my life’s activities, THERE WAS NOT JUDGEMENT. THERE WAS NO GOOD OR BAD. THERE WASN’T GOOD OR EVIL. THERE WASN’T RIGHT OR WRONG. And when you’re in the light looking at it, its different than looking at it now. In this world when I look at some atrocities, I feel really bad about it. It’s a different type of feeling when you’re in the light. It’s observing and understanding you would not do that again. It’s like looking at your life and being able to walk away from it like you would an intense movie. None of my religious experience was there. I was with the light. THERE WAS NO JUDGEMENT, THERE WAS NO HELL, THERE WAS NO GOOD AND BAD, THERE WAS NO BIG TALLY IN THE SKY, there was just the light consuming me with unconditional love. In which I was able to consume everyone else with unconditional love.”
How do you like this one? Ken W.: “When I first entered the tunnel there was a feeling my father was present who passed at an early age, and a friend of mine also. I could see at the end of the tunnel there was a very beautiful bright white light. I was feeling hesitant or resistant because I felt shame. I felt guilt. I kept thinking ‘forgive me, forgive me’. I told him with my being, ‘God I have shamed you’. He said ‘no, I love you’. As I was having these thoughts, from the light came this very strong message. It said ‘THERE’S NOTHING TO FORGIVE, YOU WERE NEVER JUDGED.’ And that was just so beautiful. Imbued in those words was unconditional love. THERE’S NO JUDGEMENT, DOESN’T MATTER WHAT WE’VE DONE. Having felt that unconditional love, the resistance just evaporated. We are children of God. And I came out of that with such a beautiful feeling. His love is unconditional and without judgement. As a life long atheist I had my NDE with Jesus. GOD LOVES US ALL THE SAME WAY my friend, and WITHOUT ABSOLUTELY ANY JUDGEMENT.”
Here you are….Jen: “I had an NDE and was told HELL IS JUST AN ILLUSION, only love is real. Believe what you must.”
Want another one? Here….Anastasia: “Time didn’t exist here at all. It was as if I was one with everything. All I had to do was shift my awareness to something and I would know it. We are a soul in a physical body and OUR PHYSICAL BODIES ARE NOTHING MORE THAN A SENSORY TOOL FOR US TO COLLECT SENSORY INFORMATION ABOUT THE PHYSICAL EXPERIENCE, and that it gets shared at the soul level because the soul ultimately wants to have a physical experience, and be able to create here in a physical life. The soul is absolutely complete. With that completeness, it meant THERE WAS NO GOOD OR BAD, NO RIGHT OR WRONG, AND THERE ARE NO LESSONS TO LEARN in the physical life IN A WAY THAT TRANSLATES TO THE TYPE OF EXPERIENCE OR A JUDGEMENT THAT YOU MAY HAVE ON THE OTHER SIDE. Actions did not translate to anything that meant that you would be judged, and that judgement is not like a sorting tool, YOU’RE NOT GOING TO GO INTO THIS PLACE OR THAT PLACE BASED ON YOUR ACTIONS. It’s not like we’re trying to check boxes here to get into an afterlife that we ultimately want to have. It felt very much like we are learning to bring that bliss that’s a part of us at the soul level into our physical experience.
More?…D. Bullock: “On the other side, IT DOESN’T REALLY MATTER, ITS JUST AN EXPERIENCE, it’s just perception. So what we consider ‘oh that was wrong’, ‘that person was wrong’, it’s a joke, THEY WERE PLAYING A ROLE. They decided to be…Napoleon…so they did what Napoleon does, war, and all kinds of other stuff. BUT WHEN THAT ROLE IS FINISHED, GUESS WHO THEY ARE? LOVE. They’re a soul.”
Must I continue on further?…J. Olson: “There was this divine presence coming up behind me. This wise cosmic presence. I’m thinking ‘oh my goodness, that’s God coming.’ And then the guilt began to bubble up again. I had the thought ‘I hope I can be forgiven.’ I was fearful, very fearful. That’s when the download came…truth and wisdom and light and love. The first thing that was communicated was THERE’S NOTHING TO FORGIVE. Everything’s in perfect divine order. And I thought ‘how can that be?’ My life was presented before my eyes. There were these things that I was saying ‘no no that was a mistake’. I WAS TOLD THERE ARE NO MISTAKES, YOUR LIFE IS PERFECT. I would say ‘that was wrong, I knew it was wrong and I did it anyway.’ THIS BEAUTIFUL BEING COMMUNICATED, THOSE ARE YOUR JUDGEMENTS OF IT, NOT OURS, WE LOVE YOU. It was this unconditional outpouring of love. BUT I KNEW IF THAT WAS TRUE OF ME, IT WAS TRUE OF EVERY ONE OF US. I WAS BEING SHOWN THAT IT WASN’T MY FAULT THAT I’M A HUMAN BEING CAPABLE OF HURTING PEOPLE, THAT THAT’S ENDEMIC IN WHAT IT IS TO BE A HUMAN BEING…IF YOU’RE A HUMAN BEING, YOU’RE GOING TO HURT PEOPLE, YOU CAN’T STOP THAT. And this voice was speaking, ‘I LOVE YOU, I MADE YOU, I FORGIVE YOU, I CREATED YOU, I’M CREATOR YOU ARE CREATURE, AND I LOVE YOU.’ As I finally got out of the pain I caused, and listened to what was being said to me, I turned and faced Love and was forgiven and was filled with beauty, love, truth, joy, knowledge, understanding, bliss, healing, wholeness.”
#1 You lack an actual gospel. That’s the first problem.
#2 It’s about time somebody said what I’m going to post. Your hell-fire NDE proves nothing, when there is a contradiction common logic dictates that. Read and see:
Why do you reject this person’s Jesus story? Read and notice at the end that he had a changed life too: IANDS – “I was hit by a car while riding my motorcycle. I died on the operating table. I went through the dark into the light – a soft bluish light. An entity (Jesus to me) was of the light, and the light was a doorway. I was not in this body, but I was as normal as my body here. We spoke without speaking. Joy was all over me. I was relieved to know it is real! Jesus said, “I know it hurts and I know it is bad. You have not done what you said you would do and must go back.” I refused. Jesus said, “You will come here, just not now…not yet. I am sorry.” Then I was on the operating table and heard someone say, “We got him” and then “Oh my God he is awake.” I AM NOW AN ORDAINED MINISTER AND I PREACH. I WAS SHOWN THERE IS NO HELL. We all go home.”
I’ll give you another Jesus story…NDERF – Karen: “She took me and placed me in a crystal-like bed and told me to rest because there were beings who wanted to honor and welcome me. I saw beings cued up to greet me. I spied Jesus among them and immediately felt as though something was wrong. I asked the being who brought me, how it was that Jesus wants to honor me. I told her that I was afraid that putting myself at the same level as Jesus would damn me to hell. SHE LAUGHED AND TOLD ME THERE IS NO HELL. We are all equal in spirit form.”
Or why do you reject this one? Mac Wright: “Everyone goes to the same place. This includes Billy Graham, Hitler, and Jeffery Dahmer.”
What about this story, from a lady who was trafficked starting at 2 years old, and had a drowning NDE…Anne Murphy: “All there was, was the most unconditional love, compassion, pure and total acceptance with no judgement at all. I WAS SHOWN THAT THERE IS NO JUDGEMENT AND NO HELL, NO OPINIONS, NO PUNISHMENT, not like what we are taught here, about a judgemental God and being sent to hell if you’re bad, that was not the case. There was no judgement at all from the beings with me or from within myself. It was total compassion, and then remembering I chose my earthly experience. It was just an experience. Love is what we all are. THERE WAS NO SEPARATE GOD KEEPING SCORE AND DOLING OUT JUDGEMENTS AND PUNISHMENTS. THERE WAS NOTHING TO FORGIVE IN THAT STATE OF BEING. There was nothing negative, no shame, guilt, or sense of not being worthy. And I saw that for everybody. THERE WAS NO COMPARISON IN THAT STATE, SO EVERYTHING IS ACCEPTED COMPLETELY. THERE’S NO GREATER THAN, LESS THAN, OR SCORE KEEPING. I saw in my NDE that whether people loved or hated something about me in this human experience, was exactly the same. It was completely neutral. And they showed me what can happen to some people…some people can have a “hellish”” kind of experience…what I saw is that that is when people are still kind of stuck between the human and the…like they haven’t fully let go of all the human stuff. Which was self imposed, they believe they need to be judged or they think that’s the truth, so that happens. Because we’re required to drop it all. It all goes when we return to our true being, our true essence, our true home. Earth is all about contrast. Who we really are is unconditional love. My very abusive adoptive father died on the 28 of June this year and I helped him. He was terrified he was going to “the other place”, but in the weeks before, we had many discussions where I reminded him of his true self, what was waiting for him when he “goes home”, and that it was not necessary for him to judge himself and become stuck in some “hell” like state, and he didn’t. Right at the moment he passed, his true essence was with me, no longer the human and it was pure unconditional love and it went through me and I knew his true being. It was incredible. I shared his death experience with him. He had everyone waiting for him, but I couldn’t go in. There’s always a barrier. Only those moving fully into “death” pass that barrier.”
How about another one? N. Danison: “I very very slowly got out of my body, and then I popped out and I was standing in front of it going ‘what? I didn’t know you could do that’. And then I saw blackness. But I wasn’t afraid, it was comforting, it was comforting darkness. And then I saw a pinpoint of light and I said to myself ‘oh I know what this is, I’m supposed to go to the light.’ I WENT AND FELT WAVE AFTER WAVE OF UNCONDITIONAL LOVE, AND ACCEPTANCE, AND JOY. I started getting downloads of everything there was to know or could ever be known on lots of different topics. I had 360 degree vision. I did a couple experiments and proved to myself that just thinking a word manifested that environment. I saw five beautiful colored lights that I knew the names of. It was the first time I ever really felt home. I had a life review. I got the answers to all my questions. I was raised a catholic and was told that’s the one true religion. I was angry. I couldn’t imagine why anybody taught me this intricate religion when there wasn’t a bit of it that was true, and I had just gotten the truth literally right from the source. God is all knowing, unconditionally loving. THERE IS NO HELL. I remembered Source creating the universe and THERE WAS NO HELL CREATED. And then also Source told me THERE’S NO HELL. WE DO NOT HAVE TO EARN HEAVEN. We do not enter into human life to evolve, to learn how to love, or to learn how to be more spiritual. We souls are already pieces of Source/God’s own self-awareness and cannot get more evolved, loving, or spiritual than while in our spiritual state. ALL PEOPLE RETURN TO THE SAME PLACE AFTER DEATH. ‘Knowing’ informed me that when a being like me enters into a human as its soul, only part of its total energy does so. The rest of the being’s energy stays in the Light and continues to evolve as it observes the soul part’s experiences.”
Need more? R. Moreno: “I’m N. American and experienced an NDE. I WAS TOLD there is no religion and NO HELL. I was shown many things. It has not been easy being here as I didn’t want to come back.”
Have another one….A. Johnson: “I can tell you one thing for sure, THERE WAS NO JUDGEMENT. THERE WAS NOTHING I HAD EVER DONE THAT WASN’T COMPLETELY FORGIVEN, AND ‘FORGIVEN’ IN THAT CONTEXT MEANT IT WAS GONE. It did not exist. GOD WASN’T HOLDING ME ACCOUNTABLE FOR THAT, God was loving me right through it, and IT WAS TOTAL AND COMPLETE FORGIVENESS. We dont have to prove ourselves to be loved by God. What I learned on the other side is that THERE’S NO JUDGEMENT ON US, NONE, ZIP, NADA. IN THE OTHER REALM THERE’S NO JUDGEMENT BECAUSE THERE’S NOTHING TO JUDGE. We’re all pure unconditional love. THERE’S NO HELL, THERE’S NO PUNISHMENT. When you realize there’s nothing to forgive, then there’s nothing to punish either.”
Do you reject this one also? B. Macrelli: “I too have died and brought back by doctors. In 2009 I was kidnapped and stabbed four times in the chest and died. I didn’t feel it and was unaware that I was even stabbed, my spirit left my body and it was the best feeling in the world. Completely free, and you’re right THERE IS NO HELL. And I have also learned that religions are hard wired into the brain according to your culture. It is so tragic that people live their entire lives in fear of something they will never encounter.”
Here’s another one for you…L. Mason: “I died. Time froze. Met God that appeared as a pure white light. Let me ask questions. Told me I had to return. Pushed me down with a hand on my left. Earth is a play pen. THERE’S NO HELL. WE ARE ALL FORGIVEN WHEN WE DIE. We all are connected when we die. In human bodies that link is very faint. That is the hole we try to fill with money/drugs/addiction.”
Should I keep going? Here’s another one for you….Anita Moorjani: “IS THERE A HELL? This is a question I get asked over and over…and THE ANSWER IS HELL NO! I often marvel at how inventive we humans are and at all the stories we’ve created over the millennia to explain what happens to us after death. I was extremely fearful of death before my NDE. I was afraid of karma, and in fact, I believed that my cancer was caused by karma. When I was on the other side, I expected to get punished for all the things I did wrong. I thought there was judgement for all the things we had done wrong. BUT INSTEAD THERE WAS COMPASSION AND UNDERSTANDING FOR WHY I DID WHAT I DID. The souls that cross over take with them their education from their time on earth, as experiences are not judged any more than people are. I understood clearly that there is no judgement on the other side, THERE IS NO MORAL HAMMER THAT IS DROPPED; I saw clearly that this is a human device used by other humans to make us fall in line with the moral majority. Since there is no judgement on the other side, there is no punishment. We gain an understanding of the effects we had on everyone else, but before we are pulled into the human drama of regret or guilt, we are uplifted to understand that we are not judged. We are left with a complete understanding from the other side that there is nothing but love for our souls, and our lives as they were. There is a great section in my book where I address this topic. The section is called “Judgement Day Cometh Not”. I WOULD NEVER USE THE PHRASE ‘BAD KARMA’, AS I DON’T BELIEVE THERE IS SUCH A THING. I simply believe all aspects of life are needed to create the whole. Neither do I believe anymore that we live out all our lives sequentially in linear time, which is the framework that many people have for their ideas about karma. In the NDE state, however, I realized that every moment in all our lives–past, present, future – unknown, unknown, and unknowable–exist simultaneously, as though outside of what we know as time.”
I’ll keep going….B. Elsworth: “But personally, through my own NDE, I remember coming back and as beautiful and shocking to my ego as the experience was, I remember driving in my car and laughing to myself thinking, “Well I wish I could tell my younger self he’s NOT GOING TO HELL, BECAUSE THERE IS NONE!” YOU CAN’T DO ANY WRONG…even (ra*e + mu*der + the hol*caust) in God’s perspective, but that’s not a license to do crazy stuff, “God” is just that unconditionally loving. HE CAN’T EVEN FORGIVE YOU, BECAUSE YOU CAN DO NO WRONG. We truly are inseparable from boundless infinite love.”
Notice this one…Andrew Petro: “I didn’t want to come back. I said I’m home and I want to stay here. I was stuffed back into my body, which by this time was found at the bottom of the lake, dragged up onto the beach, and my friends were on top of me pushing the water out of my lungs. When I popped back into my body, I immediately started coughing the water up from my lungs. When I was in the light and I was observing all my life’s activities, THERE WAS NOT JUDGEMENT. THERE WAS NO GOOD OR BAD. THERE WASN’T GOOD OR EVIL. THERE WASN’T RIGHT OR WRONG. And when you’re in the light looking at it, its different than looking at it now. In this world when I look at some atrocities, I feel really bad about it. It’s a different type of feeling when you’re in the light. It’s observing and understanding you would not do that again. It’s like looking at your life and being able to walk away from it like you would an intense movie. None of my religious experience was there. I was with the light. THERE WAS NO JUDGEMENT, THERE WAS NO HELL, THERE WAS NO GOOD AND BAD, THERE WAS NO BIG TALLY IN THE SKY, there was just the light consuming me with unconditional love. In which I was able to consume everyone else with unconditional love.”
How do you like this one? Ken W.: “When I first entered the tunnel there was a feeling my father was present who passed at an early age, and a friend of mine also. I could see at the end of the tunnel there was a very beautiful bright white light. I was feeling hesitant or resistant because I felt shame. I felt guilt. I kept thinking ‘forgive me, forgive me’. I told him with my being, ‘God I have shamed you’. He said ‘no, I love you’. As I was having these thoughts, from the light came this very strong message. It said ‘THERE’S NOTHING TO FORGIVE, YOU WERE NEVER JUDGED.’ And that was just so beautiful. Imbued in those words was unconditional love. THERE’S NO JUDGEMENT, DOESN’T MATTER WHAT WE’VE DONE. Having felt that unconditional love, the resistance just evaporated. We are children of God. And I came out of that with such a beautiful feeling. His love is unconditional and without judgement. As a life long atheist I had my NDE with Jesus. GOD LOVES US ALL THE SAME WAY my friend, and WITHOUT ABSOLUTELY ANY JUDGEMENT.”
Here you are….Jen: “I had an NDE and was told HELL IS JUST AN ILLUSION, only love is real. Believe what you must.”
Want another one? Here….Anastasia: “Time didn’t exist here at all. It was as if I was one with everything. All I had to do was shift my awareness to something and I would know it. We are a soul in a physical body and OUR PHYSICAL BODIES ARE NOTHING MORE THAN A SENSORY TOOL FOR US TO COLLECT SENSORY INFORMATION ABOUT THE PHYSICAL EXPERIENCE, and that it gets shared at the soul level because the soul ultimately wants to have a physical experience, and be able to create here in a physical life. The soul is absolutely complete. With that completeness, it meant THERE WAS NO GOOD OR BAD, NO RIGHT OR WRONG, AND THERE ARE NO LESSONS TO LEARN in the physical life IN A WAY THAT TRANSLATES TO THE TYPE OF EXPERIENCE OR A JUDGEMENT THAT YOU MAY HAVE ON THE OTHER SIDE. Actions did not translate to anything that meant that you would be judged, and that judgement is not like a sorting tool, YOU’RE NOT GOING TO GO INTO THIS PLACE OR THAT PLACE BASED ON YOUR ACTIONS. It’s not like we’re trying to check boxes here to get into an afterlife that we ultimately want to have. It felt very much like we are learning to bring that bliss that’s a part of us at the soul level into our physical experience.
More?…D. Bullock: “On the other side, IT DOESN’T REALLY MATTER, ITS JUST AN EXPERIENCE, it’s just perception. So what we consider ‘oh that was wrong’, ‘that person was wrong’, it’s a joke, THEY WERE PLAYING A ROLE. They decided to be…Napoleon…so they did what Napoleon does, war, and all kinds of other stuff. BUT WHEN THAT ROLE IS FINISHED, GUESS WHO THEY ARE? LOVE. They’re a soul.”
Must I continue on further?…J. Olson: “There was this divine presence coming up behind me. This wise cosmic presence. I’m thinking ‘oh my goodness, that’s God coming.’ And then the guilt began to bubble up again. I had the thought ‘I hope I can be forgiven.’ I was fearful, very fearful. That’s when the download came…truth and wisdom and light and love. The first thing that was communicated was THERE’S NOTHING TO FORGIVE. Everything’s in perfect divine order. And I thought ‘how can that be?’ My life was presented before my eyes. There were these things that I was saying ‘no no that was a mistake’. I WAS TOLD THERE ARE NO MISTAKES, YOUR LIFE IS PERFECT. I would say ‘that was wrong, I knew it was wrong and I did it anyway.’ THIS BEAUTIFUL BEING COMMUNICATED, THOSE ARE YOUR JUDGEMENTS OF IT, NOT OURS, WE LOVE YOU. It was this unconditional outpouring of love. BUT I KNEW IF THAT WAS TRUE OF ME, IT WAS TRUE OF EVERY ONE OF US. I WAS BEING SHOWN THAT IT WASN’T MY FAULT THAT I’M A HUMAN BEING CAPABLE OF HURTING PEOPLE, THAT THAT’S ENDEMIC IN WHAT IT IS TO BE A HUMAN BEING…IF YOU’RE A HUMAN BEING, YOU’RE GOING TO HURT PEOPLE, YOU CAN’T STOP THAT. And this voice was speaking, ‘I LOVE YOU, I MADE YOU, I FORGIVE YOU, I CREATED YOU, I’M CREATOR YOU ARE CREATURE, AND I LOVE YOU.’ As I finally got out of the pain I caused, and listened to what was being said to me, I turned and faced Love and was forgiven and was filled with beauty, love, truth, joy, knowledge, understanding, bliss, healing, wholeness.”
All these theological concepts are human inventions. Unfortunately, we impose them on each other. It’s obvious that there is a force that creates all matter and life. Every nich and environment on this planet has evolved a life form to fill it. The environments keep changing, Therefore, life forms keep changing.
All forms of life follow the same directive, survive, get what you need to survive and reproduce. This of course results in survival compitition among different species, and within the same species.
All species will propagate as extensively as they can. Nature (God) provides the predator / Prey principal to even things out. Hey! all yakity yak aside, that’s the way it is.
As far as I’m concerned, God Shmod. I’m good to all others because it makes me feel good to be that way, even if I don’t get it in return. I love my wife, and want us to stay together when we cross. If, and to what, will be the next adventure.
I just thought of something remarkable. Or rather something I found remarkable. Don’t really know why.
I was thinking about how astoundingly silent God really is. And it occurred to me because 1) he has given us many prophets and gurus, 2) he has given us many holy books, and 3) BECAUSE HE WANTS US TO CONCENTRATE ON THE PRESENT!….sigh. If he was SO CONCERNED about our eternal destiny, then why did he not do more to speak! (Oh, but he gave us the most precious gift of all, Jesus Christ, BECAUSE he was so concerned….only not so much). And here I am potentially telling you he has told us just enough. Much like our friend Mr. Shore.
BIG smile! 🙂