As important as I believe it is to poke deeply into the relationship between religion and near-death and similar experiences, as we’ve been doing of late, I’m taking this post to go back to basics. Just what is a “distressing NDE” and does having one inevitably involve an encounter with hell?
What are we talking about? There are psychological events which are experienced as an encounter beyond physical existence. Being close to death is a fairly reliable trigger for this kind of happening, which has led to the term “near-death experience.” In actuality, nearly identical events occur under a wide variety of circumstances, including people who are in no danger of dying. The events may be called spiritually transformative experiences (STE), extraordinary human experiences (EHE), mystical experiences, religious or conversion experiences, or near-death experiences (NDE). however, because of its familiarity, I use the term “NDE” to apply broadly rather than exclusively. Yes, that is, strictly speaking, inaccurate; however, it’s efficient. Bear with me for the sake of word count!
What all these terms share is a range of uncannily powerful experiences in which an individual may perceive what seems to be a visible reality beyond the physical world, or in which the person’s ordinary sense of reality is shattered by a sudden and overwhelming new comprehension of how things work, often by an encounter with transcendence. Interpreted as physical reality, these are often described as visits to heaven or hell.
Pleasant or harrowing, psychotherapist Alex Lukeman has described this kind of instant revelation as bringing “the destruction of traditional and habitual patterns of perception and understanding, including religious belief structures and socially accepted concepts of the nature of human existence and behavior.” (Read that again, slowly, to get the full picture.) A common response is, “There’s more! This isn’t all there is!”
Distress or hell? The great majority of these revelations are experienced as pleasant, even blissful, although adjusting to the new understandings can be extremely difficult. However, for an unknown percentage of individuals, the experiences are marked by fear and even terror, intense emotional and psychological pain, or by desperate anxiety and sometimes guilt. Based on a count in published research studies over a 25-year period, I have estimated that perhaps one in five NDEs is distressing. However, “distressing” covers a good amount of territory.
For many individuals, what is frightening is not what happens but that something happens which is so far out of the norm. “What’s going on? No! I’m not supposed to be up on the ceiling with my body down there on the bed. No! I am not supposed to be shooting into space with who-knows-what going on around me. Absolutely no! I am not supposed to be in these dangerous and out-of-control situations, and because I’m no longer safely on earth, it seems that some of those people must be dead, and I’ve never been so scared in my life, and somebody put me back!”
Another major category of distressing numinous experience involves a sense of being alone in a great emptiness, perhaps out in space, or someplace unfathomably huge—perhaps abandonment in the cosmos—what is called the Void. Sometimes this is accompanied by a message that earthly existence has been a trick or a joke.
In the least frequent cases, the experience itself includes features which the person perceives as evidence of being in hell. There may be a sense of falling, of smelling something decidedly unpleasant, of hearing discordant noises or voices, of seeing redness and believing it to be fire—or even of visualizing fire itself. Alternatively, coldness, a barren landscape, and/or a perception of seeing wandering and featureless people may be understood as hell. Least common among the experiences I have encountered are any mentions of beasts or demonic creatures; the fact that such NDEs are reported on YouTube suggests the power of the event more than the frequency of its occurrence in a population of experiences. An identification of hell may also come later, when a bewildered and frightened experiencer is trying to figure out what that was that happened, and decides it must have been hell.
There’s more! This isn’t all there is!
Negativity? These kinds of experiences range from vaguely disturbing to deeply traumatizing, enough so that reactions like those in PTSD may be commonplace.
The pleasant experiences have commonly been referred to as “positive NDEs,” leading to the label of “negative NDEs” for the unpleasant ones. I have mostly avoided calling them negative because although these events are painful, and often deeply so, when carefully explored and interpreted they almost always turn out to have valuable insights for the person involved. As a glorious light-filled NDE may represent the heights of spiritual experience, these represent the depths; but they are still spiritual experiences, experientially “real encounters with God or gods, or real contact with higher-order realities”—with thanks to Wiki for the phrase—and therefore meaningful.
The principal difficulty is that our first interpretation is almost universally literal, as if the event were a trip to a foreign landscape, which of course leads inevitably to talk of hell or some other punishing afterlife scenario. That interpretation has been ingrained into us by centuries and centuries of Western conviction. We know of no alternative explanation.
Although the actual content of most such experiences bears only a weak resemblance to the doctrines or teachings of the Abrahamic religious traditions, it is at this point that doctrinal afterlife assumptions come into play because they are so deeply embedded in the culture. The weakness I find in that is twofold: first, that people are so often crippled by their fear and guilt about a literal meaning of the NDE as they understand it (punishment, unworthiness, blame, the wrath of God) that their life becomes deformed. Second, a literal assumption of the experience as an afterlife phenomenon precludes our learning anything of value for us while we are alive, here, now, in this place. Meaningfulness gets pushed ahead until after we die. What a waste of experience!
Coming posts will explore this further, along with the ongoing discussion of how to fit or reshape core beliefs with this experiential strangeness. If you are new to this website and blog, you may find it helpful to check out the other articles and information tucked behind the tabs at the top of the window. It’s all quite a discussion, and your comments and questions are welcome.
Your post is very relevant in regards to something that happened to me only yesterday. It wasn’t an NDE, although I am an NDEr. But it was something that does challenge how I see the world. It wasn’t a bad experience. If I wrote it out, you might not believe it to be true, but you wouldn’t think of it as sounding particularly upsetting.
But I am upset. And so ashamed for having anomalous experiences.
I try to read the literature and keep things in perspective. I know weird things happen to perfectly sane people. But I’m still embarrassed for not being OK with being one of those people who have experiences.
Sandy, you have so much company in that discomfort! It’s not easy, being one of the people who knows about the “weird things.” It’s not easy being anywhere out on a fringe when what we want in our hearts is simply to fit in and be unexceptional. (And all those folks who are trying so hard to “get psychic” because they think it will make them feel advanced or special–wow, if they only knew the price!) I’m very glad you’re informed and aware that perspective is possible. My hope, then, is that you’ll find your way to accepting your ok-ness. You know it’s safe here! Sending a hug.
Thank you, Nancy.
I’m working very hard on accepting the OK-ness thing. My formal education is in science, and I’m trying to use that as a tool to get me where I need to be. I’m doing experiments to study what’s different about me as an NDEr. I’m even working on papers that I hope to get published in an appropriate journal someday.
But it isn’t easy and I really needed that hug.
Any time! Bravery is always to be honored.
Hello,I liked so much Alex’s saying above,It is true .In fact,I have not been a NDE person as far as I know,but I feel so familiar with these experiences and have a good understanding on them,Why ?.After passing Few decades of an accident happend to me,I have been doubtedly focusing on it,after hearing about NDEs. About the accident:
I was about 16 yr.old,in a football match ,right in the beginning of the game I had a hard stroke on my temple,I became dizzy first and was taken out the field,gradually I completely lost my memory so I couldn’t know even my brother and anything around in the world.I was wondering about all objects around, I even forgot God to ask help from . I could absolutely remind nothing but one of the spiritual personality,where I kept asking him for help.When I was taken home,my father asked me , “what happened” ,I didn’t even know him.I went to sleep at that evening and woke up the next morning,and all my memories returned to normal.It has always been a puzzle for me that why I could remember the spiritual person’s name only.Later on up to now it is proved to me ,with no doubt,that he has had a great role in my life in reality and also through some very clear and strange dreams that have affected my personal growth.Sometimes,some strange gist of mind or dreams have made me surprised ,for example, once (about 3 years ago) I saw a view of group of stars next to a brown cloud in a story of the dream.By that time I had never seen such view in any books or in the reality,the next day I went to the book store to by a book,as I was passing the first floor accidentally I had a glance at a small book put on a shelf unusually onward ,as I was passing by it I felt like to comeback and see it,I took it up,it was written in English,” Stars and Planets”, it was about more than 200 pages,I opened it up at random and was shocked,it was about head horse nebula ,I didn’t know anything about this field and hadn’t seen such thing before,I bought it and studied it .Yes I had seen the head horse nebula in my dream!,so I always wish to ask scientists of astronomy to have a more focus on this nebula as may have something to offer for human life ,but unfortunately I have no access to any,if you have please do this favour not for me but perhaps for us all.Please take this request serious.Thank you so much for your patience reading this time taking little part of my story.
Isa, your story about finding the horse head nebula in a random book is like so many accounts of things that “just happened” by coincidence or accident or at random. This kind of thing is called a “synchronicity,” when meaningful things come together very unexpectedly and without our conscious intent. What a wonderful experience of synchronicity your nebula is!
I don’t know whether the horse head nebula is believed to have any special importance for humanity as a whole. It certainly has made you pay attention! Does anyone else here have any astronomical insights?
“…However, for an unknown percentage of individuals, the experiences are marked by fear and even terror…” This so of life in general for many individuals, change is not something that is welcomed as a new departure, but a potentially dangerous situation. Some of us do not like change and would rather hold on to the familiar, no matter how unrewarding. What we are, is what we find waiting for us, in any new situation.
Thanks, Brendan. Hard to keep that in mind “in the moment,” too often.
By the time I had my experience, I had knowledge of one’s individual consciousness surviving the physical death of the body, and I believed in this. I had thrown off and escaped the conceptual confines of traditional Christian religion.
I felt a little puzzled, I was in a different reality, and I had no choice but to go along with the experience, so I did. However, I was a captive of it while it lasted, but even at that, I was still me. Therefore, I went along with it realizing that it was the beginning of it. I heard a voice call me, and I turned back.
These days on TV they’re sensationalizing The ghost / demon thing. I accept that spirits are all around us, and some of them don’t even realize that they’ve vacated their physical bodies. Why be afraid?
We have been brain washed to be afraid of anything that’s not tangibly physical. If I run into a demon when I cross, he she it is going to hear “get out of my face or I’ll kick your ass”. I am, always was, and always will be.
🙂 The demons are warned! You do make me smile.
Through a lot of research I finaly found the answer in a book;
The great misconception, at Lulu publishing. It simply answers all ridles of existence.
Joe, that’s quite a testimonial! Will look it up.
Dear Nancy,
Your point that every distressing event in an NDE is NOT Hell is well taken. In NDEs and other Spiritually Transformative Experiences, we are dealing with a different reality. A personal example is an after-death communication. About two weeks after my father died. he appeared to me in a vivid dream. His appearance did not resemble my favorite pictures of him but as he appeared in his late 50’s which I believe was for him the prime of
his life. He was attired in a suit and wearing his favorite Stetsen hat — not the kind that cowboys wear but the kind that Wall Street bankers do. He came to me and said, “Son, being dead takes some getting used to, but you’ll like it.” This vivid dream was comforting to me, although before the dream I had no doubt that my father was in a good
place.
In the years since that experience, I have often thought about his words, “Being dead takes some getting used to…” Some things readily come to mind, like the often-reported communication via thought process rather than language and the fact that folks often report that everyone can read the minds of others which echoes Jesus’ words, “There is nothing hidden that will not be revealed.” Obviously, there are a lot more differences in this other reality that, “take some getting used to.”
Thank you, Ken. A wonderful story!
My father came to me in a vivid full Technicolor dream too. I was in the back yard of a house that I assumed was mine. The back yard went up hill. There were rocks trees and bushes. They seemed untouched, as in a natural un planned order.
I loved my father, but he was an alcoholic, and I could never depend on him. This from an early age saddened me deeply. When I matured, people would say to me, even when you smile, your eyes still look sad. I carried it with me always, locked away in a place that I myself could not reach.
My father stepped out from a large bush. He had no shirt on, and was wearing the wide brimmed straw hat he wore in summer. His eyes in recognition of me were smiling, proud, and totally approving of me. He came walking toward me slightly to my left.
As he approached, he began to become transparent until he disappeared. I was shouting daddy! daddy!, and I felt the sadness come wrenching out of my chest. I came wide awake still feeling the experience. A buried for want of a better description, emotional cyst had been opened, and was draining out. To this day, I’ll always believe that he came back to help me.
Dear Madam Bush,
Thank you so much for your comment.You are quiet right about synchronicity,I know that well,although I never expect others take my personal experiences and dreams serious ,in the whole,I myself can not be certain about them where there is no any scientific or rational explanation for them,but still I can see something of strange that worth to be paid attention,and it has helped me so much to grow my spirituality and feel respect to human being,all existing ,and even all objects ,in brief this has made me feel united with the universe.I would admit myself to say that for my this vision and my acts I do not ask for incentive or any privileges from others,but I am always thankful to my merciful God.Finally,if you permitted me I would write you some of my strange experiences and dreams on any right occasions in forthcoming contacts. Thank you so much again.
I have been reading about NDEs for a lot of years now and you might find Slyvia Browns books interesting. I have had dreams of a lake of fire and I believe that the Lord will seperate the sheep from the goats. If you want to end up somewhere good than be good, if you want to be bad then don’t be suprized when it comes back to you. One friend who worked at a nursing home said that a man cried the hounds were snapping at his heels when he died. My Mom said her Grandmother looked off and looked totally at peace when she died.
Hello Nan Bush, very interesting reading on this webpage. I did not have a NDE but have been extremely interested in them and it has actually changed my spirituality. I am much more at ease about life now.
My comment is about something that happened to me in my teen years. I was with friends driving down the highway with a tent trailer in tow. 5 of us and a child in the car, coming back from a camping trip. It was a major 4 lane divided highway and I noticed my alternator light was on. I stopped on the side of the road and had a look. The belt was off and more or less shredded. Myself and my best buddy headed a mile back to an overpass that went to a small town. As we walked across the over pass a stationwagon went by (North American model, I think it was Chrysler) and something when flipping out from under it as it passed us by. I ran up to it and discovered an alternator belt…..exact size and width that we required. I matched it up to the old one I was carrying. Had I not had my buddy with me I don’t think I would have ever mentioned what happened. People would have thought I was making it up. Then, to top it all off, a truck from the other direction came along, exiting to the freeway and picked us up. Drove us to the car and installed the belt for us.
I often think of why this happened. Did it save us from a terrible accident as we headed for the small town on foot? Was a deceased relative helping out from beyond? Did God send me a favour? At any rate, I was grateful and kept it as one of those amazing stories for around the family table.
By the way, I would accept an NDE in a heartbeat. Just to experience the true meaning of love, that everyone talks about from the other side.
Gregory, it’s just that kind of synchronicity, I am convinced, that jerks us to a stop and makes us say ‘Whoa!’ Maybe that’s its purpose–simply a wake up call that we are to keep paying attention. Something is going on!
I’m one of the rare ones who’s had lots of hellish ones. All of them happened when i had out of body experiencescaused by very frequent very heavy periods. I was literally tortured by the christ, the holy spirit, lots of angels and lots of demons. And in the experience just before my hysterectomy jesus christ and the angels warned me that even though i needed the operation i had no right to and that if i did have it i’d pay very dearly indeed and spend eternity in torment in hell
That’s a lot to handle! How have you dealt with that? (If you’d rather keep your response private, you can email to nanbush12[at]gmail.com.)
I am having a VERY HARD time coping with the knowledge that these awful experiences can happen to virtually ANYONE – even given a relatively “low chance”. Never had one myself, but just because you start to read about NDEs you inevitably stumble upon the bad ones, and then the questions begin. I read your books but still no peace of mind.
Now hearing this lady’s story that even Jesus and angels can be shown to torture and harass you and command you against your health is even more disturbing. This goes off any previous category. Then now how do this kind of experience fits in any kind of narrative? Rite of passage? Hard to be. Hallucinations? More plausible, after all, the massive majority of experiences shows a very different Jesus – the one with eternal and unconditional love. But for her, it depends more in how she saw it. I hope this lady is well. And if she can share how she describe her own experiences (were them real for her? Or does she think they are hallucinations?) any after effects and how she is doing now with us can help clarify things a bit – since this post is from 2013 and I came to see it just now in 2021. I wonder what happened next.
As for me, I am feeling a constant unrest now. Questions like: are my loved ones safe? Am I safe? They just pop off and my daily routine is marked by a sense of insecurity.
I already lived a life in fear. 42 years of deep religious trauma. I take anxiety medicine but now I am finding unrest in each and every day of my life. Don’t know if I can be functional for much longer. All of this because I was trying to find a deeper truth that could put my soul at rest. Sob.
Any other advice here? I don’t even talk to my family about this stuff. They are very religious and traditional and I don’t want them to end up having the same struggles I am going through.
Thanks and I’m sorry if this post causes any discomfort to anyone. But I think I need help. In fact, all of us here maybe need to.
Regards
Leo, I am so sorry you are having this difficulty. My first suggestion is, for now, put away reading any random NDEs until you are on more solid ground. That’s something you can do immediately.
Next, regarding the woman terrified by what she experienced about being mercilessly tormented by angels and Jesus, STOP and take a deep breath. Then look at what she says.
Her out-of-body experiences, she says, were associated with heavy menstrual periods. That means she was losing significant amounts of blood and her hormones were seriously screwed up. Both of those circumstances have physiological results point to hallucinations, which are chaotic and incoherent, disorienting rather than linked with any meaningful narrative. All by itself, that should help ease your mind. There is no suggestion other than her interpretation that these were afterlife experiences.
Then consider how unlike her description of the angels and Jesus are from anything biblical about them. Jesus is not described as ever going abut terrifying people just for the fun of it. The same with angels. Yes, Jesus warns the nation about destruction if they do not change their behavior; but he was describing Gehenna, which was a warlike national destruction which actually happened in earthly terms, not individual results in a spiritual afterlife. This is a hallucination of her ideas, not Jesus’.
It is critically important to keep in mind that what Western Christianity has believed about hell for the past 700 years—eternal physical torment without recourse—has saturated our culture. However, those images came not from the Bible but from authors centuries later and did not exist when Jesus was teaching. Time for some rethinking.
You mention having suffered for 42 years from a painful theology. I am assuming, simply as a matter of probability in the U.S., that you are struggling with a belief system centering on wrath and punishment. You already know the people who share those beliefs will not be able to support you and will make accusations which only dig your fear deeper. So, put that aside! First, as you are already doing, do not tell people who hold to the destructive beliefs what you are thinking and doing to change. You have begun to claim your own path, and you need support.
One of the best ways to heal from the negative thoughts is to know that a great many thoughtful people are moving, like you, into more positive ways of believing. Never mind that people who claim to have the only, traditional way of thinking say you are going to hell and they are the only ones right. That’s one opinion, not the only one!
If you don’t know anyone to talk with, there are helpful books, recordings, and websites available from people who have themselves come to a changing belief. All religions shift over time! You can start with reading Love Wins, by Rob Bell, or A New Kind of Christianity or Faith after Doubt by Brian D. McLaren. Or there’s Faith Unraveled, by Rachel Held Evans, as another of the people I deeply respect. Or there is the website Unfundamentalist Christianity, with a wide range of comments. There are literally hundreds of voices! Find a statement you can hold onto when you need a boost.
How well any of these suggestions works for you depends, I think, on how firmly you intend to escape the prison of negativity and harm. It’s tough, going against the ideas of family and friends, but to escape means to climb over that wall. You have to refuse and push away the harmful ideas that keep crowding your waking mind…and then insist that they stay away. Again, one of my favorite tricks is imagining packing those unwanted ideas into a box, taping it shut, and putting it outside a firmly closed mental door; they’re not gone, just giving you time to find strength against them.
I am very glad to know you have my books available, but I recommend re-reading them without saying to yourself, “But what about…” Put the ‘buts”’ into the box and give yourself time to think without them! I would very much like to hear your response to Rob Bell or the others.
All best,
Nan
Yes, that helped ease my mind a bit (still have issues). But I just pray that she’s fine – cause when I read this I felt deeply heartbroken. I wish she could read this and manifest here how she’s doing nowadays.
I am still trying to figure out what to make out of all of this. After reading and studying so many things and reading so many accounts, the only SOLID ground I can grasp is that:
1) Seems we have a consciousness that can really separate the body
2) Seeing stuff while out of the body seems real and objective reality. I mean, verified occurrences while one is supposedly “dead”.
3) We seem to be able to navigate into a dimension or “thought-place” where the experience unfolds.
4) Maybe pre-existence and reincarnation too? Still unknown.
And that’s all I have. Aside from this, all we come are through innumerous different narratives and visions, many of them seemingly a contradiction of each other. Some says evil don’t exist, others that they are real. Some says about universal “salvation”, others say that there is an eternal punishment. Some are blissful to the point of absolution, others are so horrific and terrifying that even reading them can cause you to get a PSTD.
So, I don’t know what to make of all of this. I mean, the grand scheme of things. Seems our western minds aren’t prepared for it. The Tibetans may have known better.
But I’ll take your suggestions and gona examine some of the authors you mentioned. It’s a shame our science isn’t made to tap into the transcendent yet.
I still have some personal issues I need to resolve, and if you allow me, i’d like to talk to you in private just a bit more about them. I wrote 2 emails to nanbush[at]gmail already, but you since you answered here already you can safely dismiss them. Don’t know if you still reading that box though. Anyway, I don’t want to become a burden or too demanding, so I’ll only talk about it if you feel you’d like to hear more.
I already thank you for your help.
And thank you very much for your time.
Leonardo
Leo, you seem to be making remarkable progress. Good going! One question about your list: Where is the “stuff” located in #2? I mean, if one is out of the body, matter seems irrelevant other than for earthly observation; OBEs happen to people who are not dead.
I am going to try reviving the nanbush12 email, will let you know either success or an alternative.
The has been reactivated.
I am having a VERY HARD time coping with the knowledge that these awful experiences can happen to virtually ANYONE – even given a relatively “low chance”. Never had one myself, but just because you start to read about NDEs you inevitably stumble upon the bad ones, and then the questions begin.
Now hearing this lady’s story that even Jesus and angels can be shown to torture and harass you and command you against your health is even more disturbing.
…………………………………
Hi – I’d like to throw in my 2-cents if it’s OK.
Look, for me this subject regarding “NDE experiences” needs a bottom line – and this bottom line for me is verification of a flat-line brain death. If there is no brain death verification, there could be a problem.
On a simple level, the word is “dream” based on residual information in a person’s head. There is also another direction a problem can come in from, and that I call “paranormal data transfer.” A “dream” is easy to understand, but the paranormal data transfer is something people don’t even consider. All it boils down to is having “information” stuffed into your head via a non-empathic spiritual source, and you can see where that would lead. I know that it’s impossible for “Jesus and angels” to pop in and threaten in the manner given. I could explain why, but, it would annoy some people.
The bottom line simply is, there is a vast difference between “classical teaching” (having the answers ‘handed’ to you – and you just believe it), and constructivism – the teaching method that makes YOU do all the work and figure it all out.
No, I’ve never had an NDE … but I have had “experiences” when needed that began in the mid-’50s. Regarding the topic that was involved, I had to figure out EVERYTHING myself … and yes, it can take a LONG time.
Regarding “Jesus” in the above post, if you want to look into this religious picture – start with the simple fact that Christianity is based on the Zoroastrian end times picture, and the “coming one” was called the Saoshyant. There is a historical picture that incorporates the “exile” of the Hebrew people into the world of the Zoroastrians, and when they returned “home” … they took the base picture with them, including monotheism.
Take it step at a time … you’ll get there.
Jim, the Zoroastrians do tend to pop up just about everywhere! I teach a Bible group that discovered them a few years back, and nothing has been the same since! And yes, it does all take a lonnng time. Thanks for this comment.
Jim, re: your brain dead/flatline thoughts. If you get a chance look up Dr. Eben Alexander and his experience with his NDE. It clears this up, I’m my opinion.
Also, I’ve discovered a lady from New Zealand (Kirsty Salisbury, Let’s Talk Near Death)who has a podcast about NDE’s and such. I’ve listened to all of them and they are very good. Insightful and hopeful. Gave me some peace and understanding regarding death. You might enjoy the knowledge she brings to light.
Greg, thanks for this.
Jim, re: your brain dead/flatline thoughts. If you get a chance look up Dr. Eben Alexander and his experience with his NDE. It clears this up, In my opinion.
……………………………………
I looked into this some time back, and one problem I had revolved around his approach to “evil.” He said:
“Evil was present in all the other universes as well, but only in the tiniest trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free will was impossible, and without free will there could be no growth—no forward movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us to be. Horrible and all-powerful as evil sometimes seemed to be in a world like ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant, and it would ultimately be triumphant.”
OK – the question should be: What exactly is “evil.” When it hits this level, “evil” is a bio-mechanical glitch in the brain. A really good starting point boils down to the area of the brain that should generate “empathy” that – simply put – doesn’t work.
At this point it doesn’t mean that you are going to be “evil.” But, if you add certain conditions to this (like a rotten life growing up as a child), it adds new dimensions to the problem, and you CAN go totally off the wall. Also, mental illnesses which are also bio-mechanical glitches can add to this mess.
I’ve known a few “sociopaths” who weren’t “evil,” and a couple of “narcissists” who also weren’t “evil.” So it would have to include other factors that drove the person to that particular level.
Now, regarding something else Eben said:
“That evil could occasionally have the upper hand was known and allowed by the Creator as a necessary consequence of giving the gift of free will to beings like us.”
Really? OK … if “evil” is grounded in a bio-mechanical / cognitive defects (in other words, it isn’t a “free choice” from a rational mind), then why couldn’t this “creator” have seen this coming and fixed the problem? Our nuking of Japan during WW2 was OK, because it was “necessary?” ISIS beheadings are – “necessary?”
This is one of those subjects that you have to take apart. How much of this “off center cognition” has been running our lives over the millennia? Why do they create war and kill people to keep their dominant status? How far back into history does this picture go? I have 15,000 rounded years. People tried to shut it down around 7200 BC – unfortunately it failed. Phase 2 began with Egypt and Sumer – and it’s been getting worse ever since.
Life is a fascinating picture – unfortunately, the explanations need an update.
Jim, thank you! Eben’s Point #1 above, tosses evil into the mix way too quickly for my liking. That first sentence about “the other universes” slows my acceptance. Also, there are a myriad of free will choices that have nothing to do with evil–what kind of sandwich, which road, which shirt, what career, etc. etc throughout daily life. It is probably possible for a person with placid temperament in a quiet locale with minimal stressors to go through an entire life without ever coming into a situation of direct contact with outright evil. Not just a bad choice or a small meanness, but Evil. So I do not see that free will is dependent on evil or vice versa. And obviously I agree more with Pelagius than with Augustine, which probably is not Eben’s starting point, or he might not get to evil so quickly. And Yes to your point about empathy.
Point #2: “That evil could occasionally have the upper hand was known and allowed by the Creator as a necessary consequence of giving the gift of free will to beings like us.” I am stopped cold by any claim to know the mind of the Godhead. That’s what ruined Rommer’s “Blessings in Disguise” for me, all her “reasons” for why NDEs happened the way they did or what was being intended. Nope. We do not know what we do not know, and making a good-sounding argument does not compensate for an invalid claim. Conjecture is one thing; an outright claim is something other.
Thanks again.
Hi Nan. About the #2… seeing stuff, I meant seeing things that are far from where the experiencer is present (like seeing and describing precisely events happening outside of the hospital while being resuscitated). As for OBEs, there are so much questions needing answers for me about them. I wish I could have one myself (not intending to die or put myself in any threatening condition though), so I would SEE FOR MYSELF what’s going on I’m this reality. But still don’t know of any safe and proved way of doing so, the I guess I’ll have to cope with the theory meanwhile.
As for Jim… he wrote:
“All it boils down to is having “information” stuffed into your head via a non-empathic spiritual source, and you can see where that would lead.” – I could resort to this. Also believe that’s possible and some “experiences” I had in life points that way.
Jim also wrote:
‘I know that it’s impossible for “Jesus and angels” to pop in and threaten in the manner given. I could explain why, but, it would annoy some people.’
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Hmm, why it would annoy people? Care to elaborate this point further? If you don’t want to post here in open, I can arrange a direct channel for you to reach me directly (won’t post my main mail address here in the open to avoid spam).
Thanks
Leo, keep coping! All best.
“We do not know what we do not know, and making a good-sounding argument does not compensate for an invalid claim. Conjecture is one thing; an outright claim is something other.”
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Great talk.
For me, it all boils down to “life is constructivist based” … YOU figure it out. If you don’t want to – oh well LOL.
Sticking to the NDE topic, there are events that seem to fall into the “clues” category, and yours seems to be one of them. What you ran into is an identical picture of an aspect of life here, where people wind up in a mental institution because of bio-mechanical “problems.”
It seems, if you refuse help after you die, you are just placed with all the others like yourself who refuse, in a world that surrounds you – with yourself. Why wouldn’t there be “help?” It would be like born blind and deaf people suddenly being able to see / hear in an NDE. The problem was connected to the physical, not the “spiritual.” If you had a mental problem that was connected to the physical realm – and you are no longer there – it can be straightened out. Of course if you don’t want it straightened out – that would be up to you.
The yin-yang symbol you saw was something that you had never seen before, and that small piece of information (as far as I’m concerned) validates this experience as an overall picture “clue.” In constructivism it’s called schema / or plural schemata, but I like clue / clues better. There are experiences where people wind up in this “evil world” – and it’s the same thing. Like minds that don’t want help … OK – live together.
Fun isn’t it? LOL
Isa, is it possible to get any details about your horse head nebula dream, or did you just “see” the nebula?
I have never had a NDE. I have autism. But I’m confused here. I do believe in God, and Heaven. But hell? What is it? A place of punishment? A state of being?
Hell as a place seems geographically and astronomically unlikely; also theologically peculiar. More like, either a brief experience in altered consciousness or a state of being (if there’s a difference between them). The honest answer to ‘What is it?’ is, “No one knows for sure.’
Nan Bush said:
Hell as a place seems geographically and astronomically unlikely; also theologically peculiar. More like, either a brief experience in altered consciousness or a state of being (if there’s a difference between them). The honest answer to ‘What is it?’ is, “No one knows for sure.’
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I think where interpretations and understanding fails, is the dragging into the picture of old defining terms like heaven and hell. I have opted to eliminate such terms in my approach, and call ideas like heaven “quantum-land” and a spirit body a “quantum body.” These are place saver terms until we get a full understanding of what we are dealing with, and they do not drag other ideas into the picture and confuse us.
Logic would then dictate “hell” is any place outside of quantum-land, and would indicate that there are sociopathic / narcissistic / psychotic beings (using our definitions of manifested traits) who are, for whatever reason, opposed to the picture we get regarding the “love” and “caring” that seems to be attached to the quantum-land philosophy of life.
This would mean that earth exists in “hell” (because these beings are here) as well as the universe as we know it (wherever we find these negative beings) the seeming starting point for all “life” as physical.
To me then it makes more sense when, for instance, Nancy heard the following, that this was a constructivist lesson, to be put together when the time was right and more information was made available. All this would be, is an ASPECT of the total picture we need to absorb, understand, and explain to others:
“I was rocketing through space like an astronaut without a capsule with immense speed and great distance. A small group of circles appeared ahead of me. To the right was just dark space. The circles were black and white and made a clicking sound as they snapped black to white and white to black. They were not evil exactly, just mocking and mechanistic. The message in their jeering was, “Your life never existed. The world never existed. Your family never existed. You were allowed to imagine it. You were allowed to make it up. It was never there. There was nothing there. There never was anything there. You’re not real.”
Nancy was right, this is not evil … in our breakdown the picture borders more “mentally ill” and taunting than anything else. If she didn’t exist why are they talking to her? LOL …
This approach would answer the questions regarding the “negative mental attacks” that continually pop up in connected subjects like “the paranormal” and the UFO topic. Negative NDEs would then be a learning session topic as yet not quite straightened out in our minds. My experiences (not NDEs – something else entirely) have shown that constructivism is the preferred method of teaching, where the student is given a single piece of information and then left alone to figure out as much as they can about it. It’s generally at that point a new piece of information is given, and the picture is expanded.
Our problem has been that we don’t see this, and wind up in a stationary position holding these pieces of data in our hands and scratching our heads. I’m here to tell you – time to start thinking.
Based on what I have looked at, problem numero uno is – stop focusing on NDEs alone … this is one subject in a much larger picture. The so-called “paranormal” subject is directly connected to the NDE picture, and encompasses both ideas: “love” and “hate.”
The ultimate goal of the “hate” aspect is confusion – to STOP learning dead in its tracks. Why? The elimination of the “FUTURE” human race; not you and I, we “go on” after death. But those who WOULD HAVE been born, simply will never be.
The “hate aspect” is not allowed to “kill” life … but there is a loop-hole in this picture, which boils down to them keeping people in a state of confusion (not learning) while a certain event is on the way here.
There is more to this, but let’s see what happens with THIS post.
On this topic, here is a critical analysis about NDE from a Christian point of view:
http://reflexionsjesus.wordpress.com/2014/10/06/the-near-death-experiences-nde/
I’m a 32 year old male.
Two weeks ago I went into cardiac arrest; I was dead for 45 minutes, being given CPR, and eventually put on life support. My recovery was miraculous, my experience was anything but.
I went to a dark blue demonic place that I can describe as “the land of regret”. It wasn’t scary, but sad on a level that has left a mark on me.
Been doing some research, kind of looking for support.
Max, glad you wrote, sorry you are having this hard time. And for sure, it’s that “on a level that has left a mark on me” that takes time to regroup. Take your time, do whatever you’re doing for research, and prowl around everything on this site. Other near-death sites can be tough for those of us with a disturbing NDE, as they lean heavily toward concentration on the pleasant experiences; still, get acquainted with the IANDS site, and New Heaven, New Earth (nhne, which has a ton of information about a ton of things). You might also look into information about PTSD as a help, when you’re ready. Chapter 16 of Dancing Past the Dark is all about healing and integration after this kind of experience; but there are no magical answers, and what is helpful for someone else may not click with you. I’m going to put out a call for others to comment back to you. If you have specific questions or want a less public forum, my email is nanbush12 at gmail.com. (It’s often slow, though not for lack of caring.) And you might try the new book (The Buddha in Hell etc.). Keep me/us posted, will you?
Max, I’m an ex Catholic, tired of the guilt trip. Here is what I’ve concluded after reading about Betty J. Eadie’s experience. God, if you believe, is pure love. Think about that….pure love, can’t harm anyone if you are pure love. All our experiences are to teach us something. God loves us more than we can love anyone, our kids, our family, you name it. He LOVES us. Period. So, he would do nothing to hurt us, however, we are here to learn about love and sometimes our minds develop stressful thoughts. But if we stay focused on Gods definition of love, we always come back to the path of happiness. Sometimes the path is full of obstacles but ultimately he guides us to a higher learning, as painful as it can be at times. Stay strong brother.
Sorry–it’s been a while, so I will have to go re-read what I wrote in that post.