It’s been a while. There have been wonderfully overflowing visits from two of my kids and their grown-up kids, and two out-of-town conferences in which I was a speaker, and a steady stream of hometown obligations including issues of local turmoil but also an exciting weekend-long program of which I was the organizer. And somehow, after the publication of Dancing Past the Dark and almost 100 posts on this blog, it felt as though I had run out of things to say about NDEs and anything else of substance.
More probably, what was needed was some time off. Last week, out of the blue, a reader wrote to ask if I was ok, and to say she missed the blog. Bumped me right back into action. (Perfect timing, Marion! Thank you.) So here we are again, and apparently I have not completely run out of things to say.
Among recent comments on the board was this, beginning with something I had paraphrased about the message during my own NDE:
‘You never existed, you will never exist. You’re not real. Nothing you ever knew existed. Nor does anyone you think you ever knew, nor your life, nor where you live. You made it all up.’
I’m not a philosopher; just a simple housewife, but I find this statement to be illogical. If you never existed, how could you even hear this statement? And how could you make something up if you never existed? Doesn’t make sense to me.
Her comment was the third time this summer that someone has asked me to explain that same thing. Interestingly, this summer is the first time anyone has ever mentioned the reality issue. Even more interestingly, that included me. Now, you would think that after five decades of living with this NDE and this message, I would have considered every possible corner and question; but not so. Here came a whole new idea: how could this experience and these memories happen if I didn’t exist to receive them?
She’s right, it is illogical. No getting around that. It is completely illogical. The experience of a person who does not exist (and is therefore unavailable to experience) is as impossible as the sound of a tree falling with no one to hear it. (The oscillations are there, but not the sound.) “I think; therefore I am.” As I was registering thoughts, how could I have believed otherwise? So, then, what have I meant, all those years, in reporting an experience of believing myself unreal?
First, I think we have to consider the bizarreness of the situation. It is easy enough to consider logic, as I am now, sitting comfortably at a computer in broad daylight and in a waking state of consciousness. It is all very normal. But imagine going to bed one evening and awakening in the middle of the night to find yourself spinning into an entirely new galaxy, a new universe, where you are authoritatively instructed by locals that your existence on Earth was imaginary, has no relevance, and is not up for discussion; this new world is the only genuine reality. Their authority is absolute and unquestionable. You have been allowed to believe your existence; but it was never real.
My sense is, first, that emotional shock outweighs clear thinking about implausibilities. And the greater shock was not merely being told about my non-existence, but that my babies were unreal, and my mother, husband, earth, sky, grass. All gone. It was death without the light, without welcome to buffer the losses. Instant Holocaust, I called it.
Second, about “hearing”: Just as with dreaming, hearing in these types of experience is not physical but telepathic, imaginal. Again, in physical terms this is illogical. It does not require ears as receptors, and it does not need to make noise (back to that tree again). The tree is fallen, the message is received.
Third, it is almost impossible to recall, so many years later, how different my understandings were, how young and ignorant I was about anything beyond mainstream Protestant theology in post-War, middle class America. I knew nothing of today’s spirituality, psychic experience, mysticism, Eastern traditions, Jung, Tibetan Book of the Dead. Consciousness was not a field, New Age was not yet on my horizon, and near-death experiences would not be named for another fourteen years. I was without context or insight.
And fourth, like all of us now alive, I am a child of almost four hundred years of increasing materialism and a strictness of reason, in a culture which has come to believe that the only true reality must be physical. (This is a subject for another time, but it goes a long way towards explaining why we have such confusion about God.) From within my NDE, I seemed bodiless, no longer physical; therefore, with my thinking overlaid by materialism, it seemed entirely plausible that I could be unreal. And in a dismantling of the physicality of those people and things I loved, they would be unreal also. The entire argument was an exercise in the mechanisms of scientism.
Are my arguments conclusive? No, they are simply speculation about a mystery, first steps in figuring out yet another aspect of the NDE. I’ll be interested to hear your reactions and other ideas about this “non-reality” business.
What I am hearing is simply that you are still learning and growing.
As for me, not ever having had an NDE, all I can say is that I seem to be real. The world around me seems to be real. The sweet softness of my grandbaby’s cheek seems real. The touch of my husband of 42 years’ hand seems to be real. If all this is just an illusion, then I’m going to enjoy it as long as I can and let the future take care of itself!
I recently have been viewing some of Nanci Danison’s videos on YouTube. Are you familiar with her experience? She has some insights that might be of interest to you, particularly about what she calls ‘manifesting’. She was able to change her NDE by thinking differently.
Also, I just finished reading a book by Dr. Barbara Rommer titled “Blessings in Disguise- Another Side of the Near Death Experience”. She is a medical doctor who interviewed 300 people who had what she calls “Less Than Positive” near death experiences. Her conclusion is that people have whatever kind of experience they need in order to learn the lesson they need to learn, and that even the ‘negative’ NDEs can be a blessing once understood for what they can reveal to us.
I am certainly no expert, but I have a voracious appetite for learning and the subject of NDEs is a fascinating one. Each person’s experience is different and does seem to be tailor-made for them. Perhaps Danison’s concept of ‘manifesting’ has some validity.
I’ll look forward to hearing any thoughts or comments you may have.
Again AJ, my appreciation for getting me to write this post! I’m familiar with both Danison and Rommer (whose “Blessings in Disguise” is still the best collection of distressing NDEs). Their approaches don’t particularly speak to me, as they tend to avoid the distress rather than working through it; but both have been helpful to lots of folks. Keep reading!
Just read a great book that I thought your readers might be interested in. It is by Greg Taylor of the Daily Grail titled Stop Worrying! There Probably Is An Afterlife. Available on Amazon.com
Stop Worrying! is at the top of my reading list since Greg announced the book’s arrival. Let us know some details of why you’re calling it ‘great,’ will you?
I came up with this stupid rhyme one day driving home from work. It came out of nowhere in one whole piece and I wrote it down. This is the second time I’ve commented on your site and both times i sound loony but what the heck! I really like your writing and was glad to see a new post. I can’t even imagine what being bodiless would “feel” like.
i ain’t nothin’
just a breathin’ bag of air
wherever there’s nothin’, you’ll find me there.
I ain’t nothin’ no use lookin’ for me
it’d waste your time, there ain’t nothin’ to see
Don’t try to touch me don’t say hello
i’d just pass right through you
and you wouldn’t even know.
now this ain’t a bad thing
it may even come from above
cause being no thing
i know how to love
I wish my writing–especially the poetry–came that neatly! Welcome back and thanks. Love the poem, love that you missed the blog.
Try “A Course in Miracles”. It explained this years ago, but you will not understand its messages if you are not open to it. Most people are not. See its website.
I’ve often wondered how many thousands of people have found the Course in Miracles quite literally a godsend. Thanks for the mention.
Perhaps the logic behind the expression ” You never existed, you will never exist. ” is different, and somewhat hidden behind the literal sense is underlying another message. Just as an example to illustrate what I mean, in the place where I live, this is very far away from the USA, when a discussion becomes tense is a common place to say to the opponent “…shut up because you dont exist…” this is clearly used as an insult but becomes in some way a challenge to the insulted human being because is put in a position to show the opposite.
I have no doubt at all that we really are, that we are real individual beings, so in that value of the word exist we all exist and, I believe, we exist for ever. But what if hidden in the expression “You never existed, You will never exist….” the message for all of us who took note of it, is that we are but not exist unless we do with our lives what we are supposed to do.
Throughout our lives repeatedly we face crossroads where we are in the challenge of choosing between being and existence, and perhaps the warning behind the expression ” You never existed, you will never exist ” is something like
” …be very careful and wise when choosing, in front of a crossroads in your days on earth, wich way to go if you want to exist.
Guillermo, thanks for this point of view! I think this could be meaningful to many experiencers.
From within my NDE, I seemed bodiless, no longer physical; therefore, with my thinking overlaid by materialism, it seemed entirely plausible that I could be unreal.
– Nancy Bush
Nan, I hadn’t thought about that, even though it seems glaringly obvious now that you mention it.
The experience of coming out of a physical existence into a non-physical existence is shocking enough. But when your last life was steeped in a worldview that recognized physicality as the only reality, ignorantly arguing with a new Authority about “reality” while finding yourself in a non-physical state of Being seems patently absurd. Even humorous, in a deeply dark kind of way.
To make matters worse, most protestant denominations preach, or at least imply that the Next Life will be physical.
My takeaway is that your experience is fodder for the West to be more open to the Eastern side of the world’s spiritual perspectives. Nobody has to completely lose their religion or science, just expand their understanding of, and experience with God.
As usual, I think this is a Bingo. Nice addition, the observation of Christian assumptions about the physicality of the Next Life.
I was just rereading the beginning of your book and noticed that prior to your NDE you had been anesthetized and that you do not mention that your heart stopped or that you had any of the other signs of clinical death.
I am not suggesting that your experience was purely drug-induced but it may have been heavily restricted by the drugs that you were on. I once had an awful experience on a very strong hallucinogen that shares many of the hallmarks of your NDE. While it was happening I felt myself in a different realm that seemed every bit as real as this one. However, I was bound by the limits of the drug. I think this partial liberation effect of drugs is why people often end up in bondage to them. Drugs may take you part of the way but they will never let you go from their grasp which always belongs to the realm of heavy matter.
My hypothesis is that there may be a physics of the soul and/or personal consciousness especially as it relates to the body. In your case perhaps the drugs only freed your soul partially but prevented complete liberation from your body which may have been necessary for an experience of the light.
Perhaps instead of traveling to the Super-conscious you were limited by the drugs to the Sub-conscious. Psychic phenomena still would have been available to you which would account for being able to see the buildings below you and communicating with other beings but perhaps because your body still was viable and therefore had some claim on your soul you lacked the freedom to transcend to the higher realms.
I have found certain consistent reports in the NDE literature to be interesting along these lines. I’m thinking for instance of the way people describe re-entering their bodies, they make sounds like “whoosh” and “bang” and talk about the abrupt feeling of being “forced back in”. What is the interface of the body and soul such that this experience is so wide spread? Why is it that the body must be so quiescent as to allow the soul to leave? And do some drugs partially loosen these tethers but not all the way?
My thought is that maybe you had only a partial NDE and that the tethers to your body kept your vibrations too low for a successful “escape”. Perhaps this was just an accident as accidents happen in the physical world all the time and that when your body is truly laid aside you can look forward to the classic light experience?
Just some thoughts 🙂
You have a good deal of company in your thoughts about the drug effect. Kenneth Ring, for one, has taken the view that although childbirth near-death and similar experiences which are pleasant are true NDEs, the distressing ones are “not true NDEs as such but are essentially emergence reactions to inadequate anesthesia…further intensified by initial resistance and fear.” My problem with this is its reductionism, the assumption that saying “it’s only…” somehow explains what is happening. Certainly anesthesia and other drugs are a trigger to experience, but how is that different from the fact that being close to death can be a trigger, or deep prayer or intense sexual experience, or any number of precipitating events?
Further, the work of Stanislav Grof strongly suggests that as Christopher Bache has said, “A distressing NDE is an incomplete NDE.” This body of work can be helpful for an individual trying to work through a difficult NDE, but it still addresses the question of the researcher/observer while avoiding the real problem of the actual experiencer: “What does this experience mean?” While observers’ explanatory suppositions can be interesting, they generally seem to me like clever intellectual ways of trying to get out of a tight spot. On the other hand, maybe that’s just me, as an experiencer, seeing from the other side.
Thanks for your extended thoughts.
I just read about this type of experience called the “Dark Night of the Soul” that people have had on their spiritual paths… It really reminded me of the void experience that you and other people you talked about have had. They say the experience can give you the feeling of complete isolation/abandonment from the rest of the world or universe that seems to last forever, but once worked through, it can lead to enlightenment and a greater understanding of the world we live in… I’m pretty sure you’ve talked about it before but it kinda sheds some light on this experience… and if there are other people who don’t know much about this kind of thing, it would be interesting to learn about.
here’s one of the various videos I found on it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDPFI9GBsQc
I’m just wondering what other people think about this
I can’t thank you enough for that link. It is the best, brief, accurate description of the Dark Night/Void I have seen anywhere. What a gift for people only beginning to work through the experience! Wow, what a gift!
I had intended to post some thoughts on this subject, but they would have been of a very analytical and speculative nature. However after reading the other comments left I feel that my comments would not have been nearly as helpful – especially those from the above link re the dark night of the soul.
There is a school of thought that we all must experience the dark and the light after death – much, I suppose, as here on earth. I wonder sometimes if those that have suffered much in this life have an “easier ride” (to put it crudely) in the hereafter. Is this foolishness do you think?
A good question. I’ll give others a chance to respond and will come back in a day or two to comment.
When I was young I would have been devastated by hearing a message like the one you heard. It would have sent me reeling. Now it would serve only to raise my hackles. LOL And I would probably respond with a few things of my own such as “Who died and made you God? “Hey saying that made me feel AWFUL, what was the purpose in that? or “Who the hell are you? Shoo!” or
I wish I DIDN’t exist if I have to keep hearing comments from you.”
I did have a few times when I experienced something similar and it was not under drugs and I was a child and young adult. Mmm, pure horror. A dark experience of the soul, I could even see souls trapped in that void, thousands of them. Ugh. I could hardly cope in the daytime with the memory. It paralyzed me. I had to push on. Doing the ritual details of daily living, and I learned to suck beauty and pleasure from viewing things as simple as seeing the clouds or a bird preening itself on a tree branch. I had to “juice up” so to speak with good feelings. It waas scary and hard. I eventually pulled myself away from those “frequencies”. I can still feel them sometimes if i look, but anger helped a lot, or maybe i should call it fierce determination to choose something different. Goaded into self-determination, like Guillermo Garcia said. I loved his post. Words that are issued like that to me now, result not in acquiescence but rather a “I will decide that for myself, if you please.” As my Dad used to say, just because it comes from the another realm doesn’t mean its the ‘gospel truth’.
I think Rene Descartes had it right. “I think, therefore I am.”
“The simple meaning is that thinking about one’s existence proves—in and of itself—that an “I” exists to do the thinking.
While other knowledge could be a figment of imagination, deception or mistake, the very act of doubting one’s own existence arguably serves as proof of the reality of one’s own existence, or at least of one’s thought.” – Wikipedia- Rene’ Descartes-
Again, a sound argument that is persuasive only when one is not in the altered state.
One other thought on the matter. One time when I was 11 ballet class let out early so I used the studio phone to dial home (this was 1965 no cell phones:-) and tell my Mom to pick me up early. As soon as the phone picked up I said “Hi Mom, I’m ready to be picked up.” A strange man’s voice said. “Your Mom has been in a terrible accident and won’t be able to get you.” I was stunned. I couldn’t speak. But somehow I had the presence of mind to hang up and dial again. Immediately my mom picked up. A wave of relief hit me and I started crying and told her what had just happened. She comforted me saying something to the effect that as hard as it is to understand, there are creeps in the world who enjoy hurting others. I think that is true of disincarnates as well as incarnates.
I suspect that a good many readers will be thanking you and your mom for this.
Nan – Are you saying, in response to Donald B., something like “OK, let’s say the drugs did distort or limit the expansion of consciousness. That still leaves the teleological question of ‘why did this happen?’ What was the reason for it, purpose of it, or what am I supposed to do with it?”?
Jane – I love this! – “I wish I DIDN’t exist if I have to keep hearing comments from you.” 🙂
About the Donald B. response, I think yes, my point was that from the experiencer perspective, all the theoretical talk (of observers) about physiological causation and psychological dynamics becomes, in the end, simply speculative noise, while the person actually involved is left to figure out what the experience is all about.
As for Jane’s comment, I’ve been wondering what it would have been like to have that much brassy chutzpah in my NDE. Quite possibly, it’s a temperament thing!
I think it was a learning to speak up for myself thing more than a temperament thing. I did not have the ego strength to say something like that 20 years ago. And like you said, it is more difficult to have the ego strength to come up with that type of response in an altered state, not impossible, but different. It is like trying to run in water, you don’t make much progress and may drown if you run in water because there is nothing to push off of. But if you calm yourself, and use your limbs in a different manner, you can swim to your destination; shore. Shore is my euphemism for “a place of feeling good”. Additionally, it is very difficult to learn to swim by being thrown into a deep body of water unexpectedly. Some don’t learn to swim by being thrown in the water. Some drown. Best to learn in increments and even better to have someone with you who can swim to show you how.
I used the allegory of “land” as our physical reality, “water” as an altered state or other dimensions.
There are many spiritual practices around the globe that prepare you to walk in other dimensions. Not so much in our culture, but shamanic cultures around the globe, for sure. And a lot of fantasy fiction deals with just these ideas. David Gemmel, C.S. Lewis, Harry Potter. I think the Harry Potter books had many ideas analogous to wars in the spiritual realms. Like the DEMENTORS Harry struggled with in the third book. They were dark creatures whom when they came a dark chilly fog would descend around a human and suck out every good feeling and emotion, if you did not capably fight back or have someone else fighting back for you, you would go into a catatonic state.
In the Potter series the “Defense of the Dark Arts” Master Lupin teaches Harry defensive measures. Ironically enough, the “magic” to fight these demons with is…having the force of mind and power to generate thoughts of love unwaveringly until the attack is gone.
It is strange but true, there are those who would hurt us. Hurt us without cause, hurt us without even KNOWING us. I don’t get it. But I, and most everyone here on earth, have experience with that.
But the question remains, was it hurt or challenge? One is mindless, the other useful.
I’m wondering Nancy if you’ve worked out what your experience was all about (re your last comments) or at least have made some progress towards that.
As regards the “accusation” if I may put it that way, that you and everything else do not exist _ I think it may be viewed a number of ways.
These were real entities telling you lies.
They were real entities telling you the truth.
They were unreal but a manifestation of your psyche.
All of these are somewhat problematic – if you were told lies – why? What are these entities filled with ill will toward humanity.
I would have thought that they could not be telling the truth. This would be the solipsist position which cannot be proved to be false and yet we all know that it is and besides their very existence negates that position.
A manifestation of your (our) psyche. I’ve read on previous posts much speculation of how this may be a reflection of the experience of the undivided self (God.)
I wonder if all the years that have passed since your experience if you have come to any conclusions. I know you have written a book about this (these) experiences, have quoted at length various theories from various sources in this blog, but reading all that (vast amount of material) I can see no definitive conclusions.
I also posted a comment a few days ago which you said you would respond to.
My thanks to you and all the other commenters for dealing with this difficult subject.
You are observant! I have deliberately tried to be somewhat vague about conclusions regarding my own experience, as it is so important that each person figure out what such an experience means for that individual, that life. I don’t want to have anybody thinking, “Oh, she’s written a book; she probably knows the answer; I’ll use hers.”
That said, I would point you perhaps to the reply I just made to iann’s comment. My thought process is a good deal more complicated than her very clear comment, but that is something I consider a general Great Truth…though not necessarily about battlefields. I’m not into the “spiritual warfare” concept.
You had asked earlier, “I wonder sometimes if those that have suffered much in this life have an ‘easier ride’ (to put it crudely) in the hereafter. Is this foolishness do you think?”
My answer (which may well be disappointing) is that I don’t at all think the question is foolishness; however, I suspect it reveals yet another way in which our human sense of justice operates. I may be hopeful, but have not a clue whether the Universe thinks the same way. Good questions.
When I read your words it reminded me of something I read a long time ago in a Hindu religious work called the “Gita”. Basically the Gita is a philosophical discourse about life. It is part of a book ” Mahabharat” which is about a huge battle between two families. The GOD Krishna is on the side of the good guy Arjun and encouraging him in the battle. Arjun starts to have doubts before the battle begins and becomes despondent at the idea of fighting his family and friends many of whom he thinks should be revered. Krishna tells him to do the right thing and let go of his doubts. He says roughly translated (by someone else) “What is changing must always be unreal. What is constant or permanent must always be real. The Atman or the eternal, all-pervading Self forever exists. It is the only Reality. This phenomenal world of names and forms is ever changing. Names and forms are subject to decay and death. Hence they are unreal or impermanent”.
When I was younger I never understood what this meant and it sounded like nonsense. Now I have a slightly better grasp of it. Basically what Krishna seems to be saying is that the people you know and see are not the true reality. Their physical form is not the true form. Their souls have always existed and cannot be destroyed. Therefore even if you kill them in the battlefield they will not be destroyed, as their true selves have always existed and always will.
What was told to you sounds similar ie that you and all you know in the physical world are not reality and have never existed. What is real is the “atman” or the eternal soul. It would have been nice if the voice had actually said the latter part though.
Yes, it sure would have been nice! Thanks for your perceptive comment.
It was meant to disturb her…and maybe it was a challenge.
I read a book “Closer to the Light,”by Dr. Melvin Morse a Associate Professor of Pediatrics at the University of Washington who studied near-death experiences (NDEs) in children for 15 years. he related a story of a woman who had tried to kill herself as a child. When he went to interview her he was surprised to find she was a happily adjusted married woman with 3 children. Usually child suicide attempts have an unhappy life. But this woman said when she was dead, a beautiful woman came to her who exuded love and acceptance and asked her why she was there. The child responded, “I killed myself because nobody loves me.” The woman replied with a smile, ” I know. Even you own mother and father do not love you (they were drug addicts) and it is YOUR job to love yourself.” And I guess the child took that as a mandate from one whom she felt did love her and set out to do just that.
OMG this is terrible. I just went to do some research on Dr. Morse, as it was years ago that I read his book, and I see that he has been arrested for water boarding his own daughter and has tortured her multiple times by suffocation. The police think he may have been trying to induce an NDI in her!!! Why in the world don’t these people try and induce an NDI in themselves! I just don’t get some people. I am shocked. http://news.discovery.com/human/psychology/near-death-experience-expert-arrested-in-daughters-torture-120809.htm
First things first: The idea that Melvin Morse waterboarded his step-daughter because he was trying to induce an NDE is based entirely on a rumor. A highly speculative rumor by someone who had no information but didn’t know what else to think. Unfortunately, that person was speculating publicly and was quoted and re-quoted. The comment went viral. There is NO SUBSTANCE to that idea. The waterboarding incidents happened roughly twenty years and more after Morse’s research about children’s NDEs; there is simply no connection other than as a fanciful thought based on the book’s subject matter.
Here is one of the tough lessons: Even people who do wonderful work in one area of their lives have the capacity to do terrible things also. That is true of us all, though we go about our terribleness in different ways. The fact that Morse has demonstrated serious emotional health issues is entirely separate from the useful function his book has served and continues to serve. On the other hand, the importance of his career and writing does not lessen the magnitude and tragedy of his later actions. It is a sad situation in every respect.